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Home owners stare at Sh16bn losses
nakujua
#121 Posted : Wednesday, March 19, 2014 9:38:46 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/17/2009
Posts: 3,583
Location: Kenya
obiero wrote:
my land was not developed so I cannot blame an architect. Bought through bank loan where lawyer was issued by the bank. I also cannot blame them coz i feel they did due diligence. The seller seems clean too.. The rot at kajiado lands office is what i squarely blame

Just wondering what happened, did you continue paying the loan even after it turned out it was a con.
ama in such cases the bank counts its loss.
a4architect.com
#122 Posted : Wednesday, March 19, 2014 9:42:20 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
@alma, from your post, i can tell you still havent done your homework. Once you do, i will respond to you. @obiero, lets hope kenyans will put pressure for govt to style up in regards to synergy within its departments/agencies.
As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
alma
#123 Posted : Wednesday, March 19, 2014 9:46:24 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/20/2007
Posts: 4,432
obiero wrote:
my land was not developed so I cannot blame an architect. Bought through bank loan where lawyer was issued by the bank. I also cannot blame them coz i feel they did due diligence. The seller seems clean too.. The rot at kajiado lands office is what i squarely blame


Pole sana

BUT not wishing to make your life more difficult but you do need to understand how this system works.

One or all the of the people you mentioned above were involved. Trust me on that one. There is a reason why the President himself gave up and just got rid of everyone in his office.

That Kajiado lands office would not operate without professionals. ie lawyers, land valuers, architects. They all know what they are doing in there.

I learnt it the hard way. In the morning I went to do a search on a property while still in my internship. I was told to go do the same search in the afternoon. The ownership was different both times. So from there I learned that my brethren were all crooks and financed by crooks.

So now i just advise guys, make sure you spend all your time doing that search properly.

Also take care of the advisers who will throw you red herrings. The whole day today we have heard how the gov't sold land to itself so it can't return it to itself. I then wrote down exactly what happens yet I had no idea about this case. Turns out I was right.

Obiero, one day when you are stronger, sit down and rethink each and everyone in that transaction. From the owner to the bank lawyer to everyone. You may be very surprised.
Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
obiero
#124 Posted : Wednesday, March 19, 2014 10:07:59 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 13,520
Location: nairobi
nakujua wrote:
obiero wrote:
my land was not developed so I cannot blame an architect. Bought through bank loan where lawyer was issued by the bank. I also cannot blame them coz i feel they did due diligence. The seller seems clean too.. The rot at kajiado lands office is what i squarely blame

Just wondering what happened, did you continue paying the loan even after it turned out it was a con.
ama in such cases the bank counts its loss.

Yes. I continued paying. The bank manager actually threatened to call up the entire debt at one go, based on the new information. Only thing that saved me was my lawyer who argued that what we have received are summons on disputed boundary and that there is a chance that the land exists but not at current place!!! Now im just waiting for results after the freeze at Kajiado lands for audit. Im no longer anxious

HF 90,000 ABP 3.83; KQ 414,100 ABP 7.92; MTN 23,800 ABP 6.45
ngapat
#125 Posted : Wednesday, March 19, 2014 11:05:49 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 12/11/2006
Posts: 884
how are you supposed to conduct due diligence if the same govt department supposed to guide you is the one misleading you.
I'm sure the buyers of these houses did due diligence and were assured that the title was genuine from the lands office.
Its also the responsibility of the government to protect citizens and i think the Govt should own up since its their commissioner who allocated himself land illegally and forged a title deed which he made buyers believe was genuine.
I dont think its a good idea to demolish the houses but the people at the lands office who conducted this scandal should be forced to pay kevevapi the cost of the land at current market prices so that kevevapi can buy land elsewhere.
“Invest in yourself. Your career is the engine of your wealth.”
jaggernaut
#126 Posted : Thursday, March 20, 2014 7:13:55 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/9/2008
Posts: 5,389
I think we are paying for the sins of the Kanu era land grabbing. Those days the commissioner of lands would receive a call from above to allocate company x part of the land belonging to parastatal Y. And him being a 'wise man' he would also take advantage and also allocate him self a portion of the land in that process. And that is how many state corporations eg Kari, Kevevapi, NYS, prisons, ADC, KAA, forest department, railways, KMC etc ended up losing thousands of acres of land. Most of the houses belonging to govt at kileleswa, Lavington, upperhill etc, including the Nairobi mayor's residence were also lost at that time. It is the kibaki govt that came up with a policy of reclaiming grabbed public land which involved cancelling many of those irregular titles.
a4architect.com
#127 Posted : Thursday, March 20, 2014 8:04:16 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
Here is how USA plans its developments to avoid urban sprawl.

Here is the meaning of urban sprawl.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_sprawl


http://www.nature.com/sc...-of-sprawling-103014747


another article on usa urban sprawl

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih....mc/articles/PMC2936977/

Quote:
In the 1970s, Portland, Oregon, was the first major city in the United States to establish smart-growth urban planning by limiting urban growth to an area around the inner city.11 Since the 1990s, many other urban areas have encouraged the development of planned communities in which people can live, shop, work, go to school, worship, and recreate without having to travel great distances by automobile. An example of one of these planned communities is Southern Village, situated on 300 acres south of Chapel Hill, North Carolina. Launched in 1996, Southern Village features apartments, townhouses, single-family homes, and a conveniently located town center with a grocery store, restaurants, shops, a movie theater, a dry cleaner, common areas, offices, health care services, a farmer's market, a day-care center, an elementary school, and a church. Southern Village is a walkable community with sidewalks on both sides of the streets and a 1.3-mile greenway running through the middle of town. Southern Village residents have access to mass transit via Chapel Hill's bus system and can enjoy free outdoor concerts in the common areas. More than 3000 people live in Southern Village.25

Urban sprawl has occurred largely because land owners and developers have made choices that promote their own economic and personal interests, which do not necessarily coincide with the public good.18.25 Many community leaders have found it necessary to engage in centralized urban planning to promote smart growth.11 Various laws and regulations can help to control land use and development. One of the most useful land-use policy tools is to change zoning laws to promote mixed-use development.18 Zoning laws that forbid commercial development in residential areas promote sprawl because they require residents to travel greater distances to buy groceries, shop for clothes, and so on. Zoning laws can also be written to encourage high-density development and to require sidewalks and bike lanes.
As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
a4architect.com
#128 Posted : Thursday, March 20, 2014 8:07:52 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
Urban sprawl happens when people are forced to house themselves far from the city where they work. In developed countries such as USA, they have realised the negative effects and have come up with policy to prevent this.

In USA or Britain, lobby groups for the prevention of urban sprawl would keep pressure on govt to rezone agricultural lands within the city.
My take is that instead of emphasizing on the negative effects that the commissioner of lands engaged in land grabbing, which lawyer Paul Ndungu is also advocating, with a lynch mob behind, lets see the positive effects of such land grabbing to the benefit of the country.

In the USA, when govt rezones govt agricultural lands close to the city into private residentials, there are no lynch mobs shouting that land has been grabbed. Maybe in Kenya, if what the lands commissioner did was to be legalised and clear framework for how this should be done is laid out, more and more kenyans will stop to see it as grabbing and see it as re zoning for the benefit of the country.
As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
a4architect.com
#129 Posted : Thursday, March 20, 2014 8:14:46 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
http://homeguides.sfgate...-urban-sprawl-2577.html
Quote:
Urban sprawl is loosely defined as low-density residential, and sometimes commercial, development that is outside the borders of higher density urban centers. Urban sprawl communities are typically automobile-oriented as opposed to pedestrian-friendly. Planners, scholars, community activists and public officials all offer numerous possibilities as to the causes of urban sprawl.
Lack of Comprehensive Planning
The Planners Web Sprawl Guide suggests that little to no regional planning is one of the major causes of urban sprawl. If officials in densely populated urban centers plan in isolation without consulting nearby communities, the result is sometimes poorly planned developments on the outskirts of urban centers. Instead of bridging the existing infrastructure and amenities of surrounding communities, these less densely populated areas often incur new public expenses for infrastructure improvements without regard to a regional plan or pooled resources. A regional plan would anticipate the growth of new areas and gradually execute the necessary planning initiatives to create a cohesive community.


Check urban sprawl animations for various international cities here

http://www.theatlanticci...sprawl-seen-space/5955/



http://www.policyalmanac...hive/urban_sprawl.shtml

Quote:
In its path, sprawl consumes thousands of acres of forests and farmland, woodlands and wetlands. It requires government to spend millions extra to build new schools, streets and water and sewer lines. In its wake, sprawl leaves boarded up houses, vacant storefronts, closed businesses, abandoned and often contaminated industrial sites, and traffic congestion stretching miles from urban centers. There are over 700,000 kilometers of roads connecting urban areas within the Mid-Atlantic region! As a result, we suffer from increased traffic congestion, longer commutes, increased dependence on fossil fuels, crowded schools, worsening air and water pollution, threatened surface and ground water supplies, lost open space and wetlands, increased flooding, destroyed wildlife habitat, higher taxes, and dying city centers.

Moreover, sprawl is creating a hidden debt of unfunded infrastructure and services, social dysfunction, urban decay and environmental degradation. Despite the fact that Prince William County, Va., in metropolitan Washington, DC, has the highest property tax rate in the state of Virginia, the cost of providing services to new developments is so high, the county is experiencing a $1,688 shortfall for every new house built.

Perhaps more important is the loss of community: People visiting with one another on front porches; neighbors helping neighbors; everyone keeping an eye on each other's children. This simply cannot happen on 5 acre lots where people live for years without ever knowing their neighbors!

Now we are running out of greener pastures and many Americans consider urban sprawl to be the fastest growing threat to their local environment and quality of life. They are starting to question the wisdom of growing faster than infrastructures can support or service. They are starting to recognize that decades of road building have yet to and may never alleviate traffic congestion. Some communities that once welcomed development with open arms now consider the cost of lost farm land not worth the benefits of a new strip mall.


Large govt land masses around nairobi such as kevevapi, jkia which curtail residential development will result into urban sprawl as the population spreads outwards from the city into farmlands hence creating poverty/less money in the economy and environmental degradation.

Kenya has only 1/3rd of land mass that is very suitable for agriculture. This land mass is inclusive of nairobi. Therefore, nairobi land utilisation should be very high density so as to free more agricultural land.
As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
nakujua
#130 Posted : Thursday, March 20, 2014 8:45:18 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/17/2009
Posts: 3,583
Location: Kenya
obiero wrote:
nakujua wrote:
obiero wrote:
my land was not developed so I cannot blame an architect. Bought through bank loan where lawyer was issued by the bank. I also cannot blame them coz i feel they did due diligence. The seller seems clean too.. The rot at kajiado lands office is what i squarely blame

Just wondering what happened, did you continue paying the loan even after it turned out it was a con.
ama in such cases the bank counts its loss.

Yes. I continued paying. The bank manager actually threatened to call up the entire debt at one go, based on the new information. Only thing that saved me was my lawyer who argued that what we have received are summons on disputed boundary and that there is a chance that the land exists but not at current place!!! Now im just waiting for results after the freeze at Kajiado lands for audit. Im no longer anxious

waa! pole - but if the bank did its due diligence before awarding the loan and used the title as its security, if you stop paying shouldn't they go after their security, ama asset loans work differently.
anyway, just trying to play the worst extreme, that's a lot of cash to be paying up for no asset.
a4architect.com
#131 Posted : Friday, March 21, 2014 8:44:48 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
This is how Atlanta, Georgia resolves the issue of urban sparwl in their quest to create a compact city that does not spread further away into the farmlands. They say the biggest problem has been run up against local politics

Quote:
The biggest problem, though, is that any ideas for coping with sprawl have always run up against local politics, racial tensions, history and, not least, geography. Georgia is made up of a large number of tiny counties: the Atlanta metro area contains 13 of them, and the extended metro area no fewer than 20. These cling to their political autonomy, which, as they see it, includes total control over local transport. Race complicates the picture. Because the metro area's population is 26% black, the whiter counties have long avoided anything that might bring them any closer to the black core. That is the real reason why links to MARTA (which was said in its early days to stand for “Moving Africans Rapidly Through Atlanta”) have been resisted and why, even in a much more tolerant city, people in the outlying suburbs stick doggedly to their cars.


http://www.economist.com/node/606332
As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
kyt
#132 Posted : Friday, March 21, 2014 3:50:25 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/7/2007
Posts: 2,182
there are people selling kirima land in njiiru claiming that kirima sold the land. is it true that kirima or his children sold the land?
LOVE WHAT YOU DO, DO WHAT YOU LOVE.
a4architect.com
#133 Posted : Friday, March 21, 2014 4:17:22 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
@kyt, a land search at ministry of lands registry can verify the real owner. Land ownership verification is publicly available info.
As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
Fomoney
#134 Posted : Tuesday, March 25, 2014 5:03:28 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 7/9/2006
Posts: 79
@a4arch I think this is the irony of this thread, people do a search and the land is said to have a genuine title until the Lands office says it was grabbed and the title is fake. How do we guard against this govt orchestrated illegal grabbing and subsequent selling to unsuspecting public? Kanu did this routinely, remember Karura forest? Good luck fellow Kenyans!
Wa_ithaka
#135 Posted : Tuesday, March 25, 2014 6:52:19 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/7/2010
Posts: 1,279
Location: nbi
Ati nini? It's a pity that a professional many of us (at least I) respect can talk this way about impunity that sowed the seeds of PEV and sow more seeds for future wars.
The Governor of Nyeri - 2017
a4architect.com
#136 Posted : Tuesday, March 25, 2014 8:18:11 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
@wa ithaka, i usually expect a higher level of intellectual discussion at wazua compared to the rest of the blogs eg mashada. Thats why i usually put complex logic for people whom i believe have the capacity to understand it compared to other forums. The reason why so many kenyans cant afford housing and prices are high is because we keep doing things the same way and expecting different results. Its high time kenyans tried to do things differently and emulate the likes of USA,Denmark,Ireland and China in respect to land ownership and usage. This is what i advocate for. To see this logic, you must first agree to research and think completely different in thought process. The logic i usually give here is for the benefit of most kenyans who still dont own property in Kenya. I already am a property owner so i would also like others to own property. Unfortunately, if kenyans continue not to engage deep logic in the issue of land, there is nothing much i can do to help them.Some of these logics seem controversial but if i dont give them across, who will? Let me simplify the logic again for you . Whichever way government land that is prime changes ownership from idle utilisation by govt to full utilisation by govt or private citizens, this land then goes ahead to contribute to the economy. If the said land continues to lie idle, you and me will have to pay more tax to sustain govt. I know it sounds basic but i now understand its quite hard for the average kenyan to see the link between idle land and fiscal economics of the country. Thats why investments in the kenyan real estatemarket make astronomical profits. I also invest in the same real estate, making the same super profits but i know deep down, one day, something will give in. Its in the hope that the next generation will be smart enough to see my logic and implement it in land policy to reduce poverty since in my generation, am now convinced very few people can make this link between land and fiscal economics.
As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
a4architect.com
#137 Posted : Tuesday, March 25, 2014 8:43:16 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
this is how new york was in the 1890s, a desolate slum

http://petapixel.com/201...nderbelly-in-the-1890s/



When New york discovered the link between land ownership and poverty, they changed their land laws to what has brought them current prosperity.

Most land was owned by the English royal family and the catholic church. What ney york did wassimple, ensure that the royal family and the catholic church continue to onw the land, wheter legally or illegaly, but make sure that all this land is developed and if they dont develop, pay tax to compensate for the drain to the economy.

Sociologists such as Henry George advocated for a better new york as below

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_George

Quote:
Furthermore, on a visit to New York City, he was struck by the apparent paradox that the poor in that long-established city were much worse off than the poor in less developed California. These observations supplied the theme and title for his 1879 book Progress and Poverty, which was a great success, selling over 3 million copies. In it George made the argument that a sizeable portion of the wealth created by social and technological advances in a free market economy is possessed by land owners and monopolists via economic rents, and that this concentration of unearned wealth is the main cause of poverty. George considered it a great injustice that private profit was being earned from restricting access to natural resources while productive activity was burdened with heavy taxes, and indicated that such a system was equivalent to slavery – a concept somewhat similar to wage slavery. This is also the work in which he made the case for a "land tax" in which governments would tax the value of the land itself, thus preventing private interests from profiting upon its mere possession, but allowing the value of all improvements made to that land to remain with investors.[16][17]


Henry George later in life
George was in a position to discover this pattern, having experienced poverty himself, knowing many different societies from his travels, and living in California at a time of rapid growth. In particular he had noticed that the construction of railroads in California was increasing land values and rents as fast as or faster than wages were rising.[13][18]
As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
Nabwire
#138 Posted : Tuesday, March 25, 2014 8:44:55 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/22/2011
Posts: 1,325
Interesting debate but I would like to point out that the high land prices, as explained in Economics, are because the average Kenyan does not know or trust other investment modes. Its been explained that in developing nations, people prefer to own tangible assets that they can see and touch, this is especially true in countries with high levels of insecurity people prefer to own assets that they can quickly pick up and move with, thus why land (through ownership of title deeds) and cash are valued high. I don't know the statistics for say Somalia or Mali, but according to this hypothesis, land should be valued high there, atleast higher than stocks and intangible assets. But in the Kenyan case, Kenyans tend to have a herd mentality, and this may further and unnecessarily push up prices even higher.
a4architect.com
#139 Posted : Tuesday, March 25, 2014 8:55:03 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
@nabwire, true. Most African countries have the same land laws like kenya and land prices rise as astronomical. Only north africa and south africa have utilised land laws similar to usa , northern europe and china and the difference in the economy is very clear.
If sociologists like Henry George advocated for the royal family and catholic church land to be redistributed to the poor, the result would have been anarchy and poor land utilisation. Instead, they chose to look at the bigger picture, ignore the issue of who owns the land and how, is the ownership legal or not etc etc. They chose to concentrate on the fact that whoever currently owns the land can continue owning it as long as the land will be beneficial to the rest of the population eg by farming on it, building rental houses etc etc. This way, the emotive issue of who owns the land becomes irrelevant eg whether commissioner of lands owned the land, sold it to kamau, otieno etc becomes irrelevant as song as kamau,otieno etc are utilising the land for usage to the rest of the population.

The whole world over, land will almost certainly be owned by the ruling class and any attempt to rechange this is impossible. The easiest way out is to force the same land owners to utilise the land in a win win situation.
As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
alma
#140 Posted : Tuesday, March 25, 2014 8:57:09 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/20/2007
Posts: 4,432
Some of the things I'm reading here come straight from an Agatha Christie novel. A lot of heresay and no facts.

I will remain sincerely,

Mr. follow land laws as they are meant to be implemented. Any corruption should be looked at as economic terrorism.
Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
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