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Home owners stare at Sh16bn losses
Jamani
#21 Posted : Tuesday, March 18, 2014 3:19:31 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/12/2006
Posts: 1,554
a4architect.com wrote:
the same should have applied to syokimau. The airport should have been relocated to konza.


a4a.com, I can't believe its you making that comment, without even putting logic compare the two costs the demolished units in syokimau and JKIA relocating
vky
#22 Posted : Tuesday, March 18, 2014 3:30:00 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 6/17/2010
Posts: 572
the land should go back to the true owner, the innocent third or fourth parties should be compensated(by whom is another issue) the kind of arguements put forth here are what fans corruption on our slice of the earth, the fact that money, sweat and time were put into this, that does not legalise a prima facie illegal acquisition
'One headache for famous medieval holy people was that someone might murder you to acquire your body parts for the relics trade'
jamplu
#23 Posted : Tuesday, March 18, 2014 3:34:33 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 3/25/2010
Posts: 939
Location: Nai
Jamani wrote:
a4architect.com wrote:
the same should have applied to syokimau. The airport should have been relocated to konza.


a4a.com, I can't believe its you making that comment, without even putting logic compare the two costs the demolished units in syokimau and JKIA relocating


@Jamani someday you will hear of KAA and the govt complaining that there are unsuitable buildings near greenfield and the proposed second runway there are several storied buildings near KAA's land JKIA resort mall, mitchell cotts and offices on tile & carpet airport view warehouses they are watching them being constructed they've even gone ahead and given approval for the construction.
Jamani
#24 Posted : Tuesday, March 18, 2014 3:47:29 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/12/2006
Posts: 1,554
jamplu wrote:
Jamani wrote:
a4architect.com wrote:
the same should have applied to syokimau. The airport should have been relocated to konza.


a4a.com, I can't believe its you making that comment, without even putting logic compare the two costs the demolished units in syokimau and JKIA relocating


@Jamani someday you will hear of KAA and the govt complaining that there are unsuitable buildings near greenfield and the proposed second runway there are several storied buildings near KAA's land JKIA resort mall, mitchell cotts and offices on tile & carpet airport view warehouses they are watching them being constructed they've even gone ahead and given approval for the construction.


I appreciate your comment, however there is some difference the tile & carpet, Mitchell cotts are built on their own plots, they have not encroached on the JKIA land hence they will be compensated should their land be required. Syokimau people encroached and that's the reason their buildings were brought down without compensation, the issue wasn't suitablity or otherwise it was encroachment.
mnandii
#25 Posted : Tuesday, March 18, 2014 3:53:41 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/11/2006
Posts: 2,304
wanyee wrote:
a4architect.com wrote:
The original owners of nairobi were the maasais to the south/kajiado, kambas to the east/syokimau/kangundo rd and kikuyus to the north west/kiambu/thika.muthaiga/karen/dagoreti. The colonial govt then appropriated the land to themselves then they allocated the land to settlers from Britain. These settlers then sold under the swinnerton plan in the 1950s and the little that remained govt land was appropriated by kenyatta, moi and kibaki govts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swynnerton_Plan

Ministry of agric has as much rights to the land as the original african tribal owners so they should be pliable to discussions and let the current owners live in peace.

How i wish the same logic was applied to Syokimau

There is a big difference btw Syokimau case and Diamond park. Syokimau, as much as there was fraud, it needs to be appreciated that airport security was the main driving force. Diamond Park was just land lying idle without any pressing immediate use.
Conventional thinkers waste time building shelters when they are unnecessary and then have no shelters when they need them the most. Socionomists do the opposite.
Jamani
#26 Posted : Tuesday, March 18, 2014 3:54:56 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/12/2006
Posts: 1,554
vky wrote:
the land should go back to the true owner, the innocent third or fourth parties should be compensated(by whom is another issue) the kind of arguements put forth here are what fans corruption on our slice of the earth, the fact that money, sweat and time were put into this, that does not legalise a prima facie illegal acquisition


It's unfortunate that this kind of corruption is more fanned by professionals in the industry because they know the issues surrounding such land(s) yet they go ahead and advise their clients to put up structures, why? Because they want their fees to be paid, someone must drive that Range....you know.
a4architect.com
#27 Posted : Tuesday, March 18, 2014 4:47:06 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
Jamani wrote:
jamplu wrote:
Jamani wrote:
a4architect.com wrote:
the same should have applied to syokimau. The airport should have been relocated to konza.


a4a.com, I can't believe its you making that comment, without even putting logic compare the two costs the demolished units in syokimau and JKIA relocating


@Jamani someday you will hear of KAA and the govt complaining that there are unsuitable buildings near greenfield and the proposed second runway there are several storied buildings near KAA's land JKIA resort mall, mitchell cotts and offices on tile & carpet airport view warehouses they are watching them being constructed they've even gone ahead and given approval for the construction.


I appreciate your comment, however there is some difference the tile & carpet, Mitchell cotts are built on their own plots, they have not encroached on the JKIA land hence they will be compensated should their land be required. Syokimau people encroached and that's the reason their buildings were brought down without compensation, the issue wasn't suitablity or otherwise it was encroachment.


@jamani, sometimes i am worried by mentality of the majority of Kenyans to act like lynch mobs to other people who seem to have made a few strides in investments. From the judiciary to ordinary kenyans, the chorus is demolish, demolish as we saw with JKIA situation. Could it be an issue of lack of understanding the advantates or is it just sheer jealousy?

When i look at the kevivapi land, i see hard working kenyans trying to house their families and provide housing/shelter to other kenyans. Whether the land was grabbed or not, kevivapi land use should have been revoked years ago and the land offered to the public to be constructed on as residential or office space. As a country, the economy, all 40 million kenyans, including you @jamani, would loose out if kevivapi were to carry out agric activities on the land. All 40 million kenyans, including you @jamani, are benefiting when the kevivapi land is being used as residential currently. The net effect in the economy is positive, job creations, less travel time for workers ,etc etc.

Assuming kevivapi continues to utilise the land, the house owners would have moved further, pushing the urban sprawl as nairobi expands. This would have costed you @jamani, myself nd the rest of the 40 million kenyans, around kes 2 billion to lay the infrastructure/roads/water/sewer etc.This would have been unnecessary/wasted/duplicated since the infrastructure is there at kevivapi land but not utilised appropriately in the kevivapi agricultural use.
For once, lets begin to look at the bigger picture of things as a nation, not as individuals.

As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
Lolest!
#28 Posted : Tuesday, March 18, 2014 5:25:46 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 12,069
Location: Kianjokoma
KEVEVAPI should be restored to its initial position. It might be impossible to return them the land but at least monetary compensation. Problem is who will compensate? How did NSSF Tassia go?
Laughing out loudly smile Applause d'oh! Sad Drool Liar Shame on you Pray
h2s
#29 Posted : Tuesday, March 18, 2014 5:35:59 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 7/20/2012
Posts: 141
All those houses were built in broad daylight and over a period of time. How come construction was not stopped during the initial phase? There is more to it than meet the eyes and ears.
bird_man
#30 Posted : Tuesday, March 18, 2014 5:47:23 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/2/2006
Posts: 1,206
Location: Nairobi
Most of those estates have been there for about 6-8 yrs....
Did KEVEVAPI just realize it was grabbed now?

What I see here is State fat cats who sold the land illegally to developers & made billions.They now want to repeat the whole cycle....demolish residential houses....KEVEVAPI gets the land again...fat cats sell it out illegally...again!And the cycle continues.
Formally employed people often live their employers' dream & forget about their own.
a4architect.com
#31 Posted : Tuesday, March 18, 2014 5:56:15 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
@h2s, true, in other countries, if someone constructs a building and a certain period of time, usually 2 months, the government doesnt complain/intervene etc, then the building is said to be legal. Its called the Silence is consent rule and mainly applies in building approval by the local authority. If within 2 months of your commencement/completion of construction the govt is silent, its deemed to have allowed you to construct.

In France, for example, the silence is consent rule applies after 2 months.

http://www.doingbusiness...th-construction-permits/
As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
Jamani
#32 Posted : Tuesday, March 18, 2014 6:21:35 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/12/2006
Posts: 1,554
a4architect.com wrote:
Jamani wrote:
jamplu wrote:
Jamani wrote:
a4architect.com wrote:
the same should have applied to syokimau. The airport should have been relocated to konza.


a4a.com, I can't believe its you making that comment, without even putting logic compare the two costs the demolished units in syokimau and JKIA relocating


@Jamani someday you will hear of KAA and the govt complaining that there are unsuitable buildings near greenfield and the proposed second runway there are several storied buildings near KAA's land JKIA resort mall, mitchell cotts and offices on tile & carpet airport view warehouses they are watching them being constructed they've even gone ahead and given approval for the construction.


I appreciate your comment, however there is some difference the tile & carpet, Mitchell cotts are built on their own plots, they have not encroached on the JKIA land hence they will be compensated should their land be required. Syokimau people encroached and that's the reason their buildings were brought down without compensation, the issue wasn't suitablity or otherwise it was encroachment.


@jamani, sometimes i am worried by mentality of the majority of Kenyans to act like lynch mobs to other people who seem to have made a few strides in investments. From the judiciary to ordinary kenyans, the chorus is demolish, demolish as we saw with JKIA situation. Could it be an issue of lack of understanding the advantates or is it just sheer jealousy?

When i look at the kevivapi land, i see hard working kenyans trying to house their families and provide housing/shelter to other kenyans. Whether the land was grabbed or not, kevivapi land use should have been revoked years ago and the land offered to the public to be constructed on as residential or office space. As a country, the economy, all 40 million kenyans, including you @jamani, would loose out if kevivapi were to carry out agric activities on the land. All 40 million kenyans, including you @jamani, are benefiting when the kevivapi land is being used as residential currently. The net effect in the economy is positive, job creations, less travel time for workers ,etc etc.

Assuming kevivapi continues to utilise the land, the house owners would have moved further, pushing the urban sprawl as nairobi expands. This would have costed you @jamani, myself nd the rest of the 40 million kenyans, around kes 2 billion to lay the infrastructure/roads/water/sewer etc.This would have been unnecessary/wasted/duplicated since the infrastructure is there at kevivapi land but not utilised appropriately in the kevivapi agricultural use.
For once, lets begin to look at the bigger picture of things as a nation, not as individuals.



The big picture we should be looking at is not encroachment and grabbing then crying foul when the law is followed. The big picture we should be advocating is to do the right thing first, to save us the 2 billion plus by changing the land use and utilizing the land as you have mentioned transparently.
@a4a.com what you saying is so long as one can justify better use of your land it's okay for them to take it. That's anarchy
Jamani
#33 Posted : Tuesday, March 18, 2014 6:29:24 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/12/2006
Posts: 1,554
bird_man wrote:
Most of those estates have been there for about 6-8 yrs....
Did KEVEVAPI just realize it was grabbed now?

What I see here is State fat cats who sold the land illegally to developers & made billions.They now want to repeat the whole cycle....demolish residential houses....KEVEVAPI gets the land again...fat cats sell it out illegally...again!And the cycle continues.


That's what we should avoid at all costs, believe me even that developer is a fat cat and knew what he was doing from the word go.
Jamani
#34 Posted : Tuesday, March 18, 2014 6:31:13 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/12/2006
Posts: 1,554
bird_man wrote:
Most of those estates have been there for about 6-8 yrs....
Did KEVEVAPI just realize it was grabbed now?

What I see here is State fat cats who sold the land illegally to developers & made billions.They now want to repeat the whole cycle....demolish residential houses....KEVEVAPI gets the land again...fat cats sell it out illegally...again!And the cycle continues.


That's what we should avoid at all costs, believe me even that developer is a fat cat and knew what he was doing from the word go.
Jamani
#35 Posted : Tuesday, March 18, 2014 6:33:25 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/12/2006
Posts: 1,554
h2s wrote:
All those houses were built in broad daylight and over a period of time. How come construction was not stopped during the initial phase? There is more to it than meet the eyes and ears.


Fat cats were involved and no one could stop it. This reminds me of the monkey story, who was left holding....
Jamani
#36 Posted : Tuesday, March 18, 2014 6:35:10 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/12/2006
Posts: 1,554
Lolest! wrote:
KEVEVAPI should be restored to its initial position. It might be impossible to return them the land but at least monetary compensation. Problem is who will compensate? How did NSSF Tassia go?


NSSF tassia, was paid twice, to the fat cats and to NSSF
a4architect.com
#37 Posted : Tuesday, March 18, 2014 6:36:45 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
Jamani wrote:
a4architect.com wrote:
Jamani wrote:
jamplu wrote:
Jamani wrote:
a4architect.com wrote:
the same should have applied to syokimau. The airport should have been relocated to konza.


a4a.com, I can't believe its you making that comment, without even putting logic compare the two costs the demolished units in syokimau and JKIA relocating


@Jamani someday you will hear of KAA and the govt complaining that there are unsuitable buildings near greenfield and the proposed second runway there are several storied buildings near KAA's land JKIA resort mall, mitchell cotts and offices on tile & carpet airport view warehouses they are watching them being constructed they've even gone ahead and given approval for the construction.


I appreciate your comment, however there is some difference the tile & carpet, Mitchell cotts are built on their own plots, they have not encroached on the JKIA land hence they will be compensated should their land be required. Syokimau people encroached and that's the reason their buildings were brought down without compensation, the issue wasn't suitablity or otherwise it was encroachment.


@jamani, sometimes i am worried by mentality of the majority of Kenyans to act like lynch mobs to other people who seem to have made a few strides in investments. From the judiciary to ordinary kenyans, the chorus is demolish, demolish as we saw with JKIA situation. Could it be an issue of lack of understanding the advantates or is it just sheer jealousy?

When i look at the kevivapi land, i see hard working kenyans trying to house their families and provide housing/shelter to other kenyans. Whether the land was grabbed or not, kevivapi land use should have been revoked years ago and the land offered to the public to be constructed on as residential or office space. As a country, the economy, all 40 million kenyans, including you @jamani, would loose out if kevivapi were to carry out agric activities on the land. All 40 million kenyans, including you @jamani, are benefiting when the kevivapi land is being used as residential currently. The net effect in the economy is positive, job creations, less travel time for workers ,etc etc.

Assuming kevivapi continues to utilise the land, the house owners would have moved further, pushing the urban sprawl as nairobi expands. This would have costed you @jamani, myself nd the rest of the 40 million kenyans, around kes 2 billion to lay the infrastructure/roads/water/sewer etc.This would have been unnecessary/wasted/duplicated since the infrastructure is there at kevivapi land but not utilised appropriately in the kevivapi agricultural use.
For once, lets begin to look at the bigger picture of things as a nation, not as individuals.



The big picture we should be looking at is not encroachment and grabbing then crying foul when the law is followed. The big picture we should be advocating is to do the right thing first, to save us the 2 billion plus by changing the land use and utilizing the land as you have mentioned transparently.
@a4a.com what you saying is so long as one can justify better use of your land it's okay for them to take it. That's anarchy


@jamani, replace the words one with government in your sentence above.

As long as Government can justify the land use of your land to be the most desirable, they can take it. Its called the compulsory land acquisitions act.

http://kenyalaw.org/kl/f...ndAcquisitionCap295.pdf

Thats why we elect governments so as to make such decisions. NSSF is Government so the developer bought from Government.
As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
Jamani
#38 Posted : Tuesday, March 18, 2014 6:42:08 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/12/2006
Posts: 1,554
a4architect.com wrote:
Jamani wrote:
a4architect.com wrote:
Jamani wrote:
jamplu wrote:
Jamani wrote:
a4architect.com wrote:
the same should have applied to syokimau. The airport should have been relocated to konza.


a4a.com, I can't believe its you making that comment, without even putting logic compare the two costs the demolished units in syokimau and JKIA relocating


@Jamani someday you will hear of KAA and the govt complaining that there are unsuitable buildings near greenfield and the proposed second runway there are several storied buildings near KAA's land JKIA resort mall, mitchell cotts and offices on tile & carpet airport view warehouses they are watching them being constructed they've even gone ahead and given approval for the construction.


I appreciate your comment, however there is some difference the tile & carpet, Mitchell cotts are built on their own plots, they have not encroached on the JKIA land hence they will be compensated should their land be required. Syokimau people encroached and that's the reason their buildings were brought down without compensation, the issue wasn't suitablity or otherwise it was encroachment.


@jamani, sometimes i am worried by mentality of the majority of Kenyans to act like lynch mobs to other people who seem to have made a few strides in investments. From the judiciary to ordinary kenyans, the chorus is demolish, demolish as we saw with JKIA situation. Could it be an issue of lack of understanding the advantates or is it just sheer jealousy?

When i look at the kevivapi land, i see hard working kenyans trying to house their families and provide housing/shelter to other kenyans. Whether the land was grabbed or not, kevivapi land use should have been revoked years ago and the land offered to the public to be constructed on as residential or office space. As a country, the economy, all 40 million kenyans, including you @jamani, would loose out if kevivapi were to carry out agric activities on the land. All 40 million kenyans, including you @jamani, are benefiting when the kevivapi land is being used as residential currently. The net effect in the economy is positive, job creations, less travel time for workers ,etc etc.

Assuming kevivapi continues to utilise the land, the house owners would have moved further, pushing the urban sprawl as nairobi expands. This would have costed you @jamani, myself nd the rest of the 40 million kenyans, around kes 2 billion to lay the infrastructure/roads/water/sewer etc.This would have been unnecessary/wasted/duplicated since the infrastructure is there at kevivapi land but not utilised appropriately in the kevivapi agricultural use.
For once, lets begin to look at the bigger picture of things as a nation, not as individuals.



The big picture we should be looking at is not encroachment and grabbing then crying foul when the law is followed. The big picture we should be advocating is to do the right thing first, to save us the 2 billion plus by changing the land use and utilizing the land as you have mentioned transparently.
@a4a.com what you saying is so long as one can justify better use of your land it's okay for them to take it. That's anarchy


@jamani, replace the words one with government in your sentence above.

As long as Government can justify the land use of your land to be the most desirable, they can take it. Its called the compulsory land acquisitions act.

http://kenyalaw.org/kl/f...ndAcquisitionCap295.pdf

Thats why we elect governments so as to make such decisions. NSSF is Government so the developer bought from Government.


Bwana a4a.com, it's the same government that's saying it wasn't done above board, it's fat cats that did things under the table and the govt is now complaining
mkenyan
#39 Posted : Wednesday, March 19, 2014 10:32:31 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 4/1/2009
Posts: 1,883
Jamani wrote:
jamplu wrote:
Jamani wrote:
Going by arguments here, someone might built on your land and then say that we should be sensible not to demolish that property because of xyz.


if am not wrong there's number of years that if you allowed a squatter on your land you can't evict them and they would assume ownership?? i think it falls under Adverse Possession ...


I think it's after 12 years, now imagine you bought land went abroad for 5 years then came back and found someone has built on your plot.... If I go by arguments here it appears that you should relocate or leave the one that has built to stay put...just as someone is arguing that JKIA should have relocated to konza

adverse possession cannot be used against the government. and it only applies if the possession is with the knowledge of the owner.
a4architect.com
#40 Posted : Wednesday, March 19, 2014 11:37:59 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
if we look at the bigger, national picture, jkia and kevivapi should relocate. This decision is to the discretion of government planners. If i was to advice govt, that is what i would like to see. Other large government lands around nairobi except forests and environment sensitive areas should also relocate and the land allocated to developers. This will save us infrastrucure monies.
As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
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