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East Africa's largest economy?
mpobiz
#21 Posted : Thursday, February 06, 2014 7:37:05 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 8/10/2010
Posts: 2,264
mkeiy wrote:
mpobiz wrote:
The way I am seeing here is that you have chosen countries with high populations as role models.
China, India and now Ethiopia
According to wikipedia Ethiopia = 94mil people
Wherever there is a big population there is cheap labour and exploitation. That's a heaven for investors who's only aim is to make a quick profit.
That is how growth is accelerated in this countries at the expense of the majority of it's citizens.
So in order to achieve fast growth, we either strike oil(like Ghana) or we create a baby boom in order to fill the factories of the future.



Really? Baby boom to fill the factories of the future? Why can't we have present day factories to be filled by our unemployed youths?

What baby boom did Taiwan ,Singapore or South Korea have to grow their economies?

Your current unemployed youth are not desperate enough.
The kind of treatment that workers go through in countries like China and India your lowest Kenyan worker wouldn't take it.. This kind of exploitation is what is accelerating the GDP in some of this countries. This is attributed to high population.
during the 1970s and 80s when our government was concentrating on agriculture . In Taiwan and south Korea factory Workers endured 16 hour working day and eventually things improved and moved the back breaking jobs to China and India.
Politics is just things to keep the people divided and foolish and put your trust in men and none of them can do nothing for you...
masukuma
#22 Posted : Thursday, February 06, 2014 8:54:33 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,821
Location: Nairobi
mpobiz wrote:
mkeiy wrote:
mpobiz wrote:
The way I am seeing here is that you have chosen countries with high populations as role models.
China, India and now Ethiopia
According to wikipedia Ethiopia = 94mil people
Wherever there is a big population there is cheap labour and exploitation. That's a heaven for investors who's only aim is to make a quick profit.
That is how growth is accelerated in this countries at the expense of the majority of it's citizens.
So in order to achieve fast growth, we either strike oil(like Ghana) or we create a baby boom in order to fill the factories of the future.



Really? Baby boom to fill the factories of the future? Why can't we have present day factories to be filled by our unemployed youths?

What baby boom did Taiwan ,Singapore or South Korea have to grow their economies?

Your current unemployed youth are not desperate enough.
The kind of treatment that workers go through in countries like China and India your lowest Kenyan worker wouldn't take it.. This kind of exploitation is what is accelerating the GDP in some of this countries. This is attributed to high population.
during the 1970s and 80s when our government was concentrating on agriculture . In Taiwan and south Korea factory Workers endured 16 hour working day and eventually things improved and moved the back breaking jobs to China and India.

the path to success is not political! it's back breaking work and exploitation of resources (HR and natural). watu wendele tu kutafuta Messiah!
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
simonkabz
#23 Posted : Thursday, February 06, 2014 10:29:26 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/2/2007
Posts: 8,776
Location: Cameroon
Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:
Toshy wrote:
If as the world bank claims, mobile money transactions make up 20% of our GDP and last year we transacted 1.7 trillion ksh (20 billion USD) doesn't that make our GDP closer to 100 billion USD? This means the figure of 40 billion USD being mentioned is a gross underestimate of our economic size.


This finally makes sense. Our GDP is generally much larger than quoted simply because many of the units of activities in our economy are never counted.

Picture this, somewhere in deep Murang'a, a housewife ties a baby to her back and spends the day collecting firewood for boiling Githeri. End result is the family feeds that day, impact on economy is nil coz the household planted the maize and beans used to make the Githeri in their subsistence shamba.

now in the UK, wifey goes to work at the tube and earns 1,500 pounds per month, takes children to a nanny who charges 300 pounds per month, in the evening she buys premade frozen food for more pounds and cooks it with electricity and freezes it with electiricity,

The activities for the UK household are recorded and add to the size of the economy without improving the individuals life while the Kenyans are not recorded and wrongly depress ours.

Trust me if you are middo crass in Kenya, you are missing nothing in this world


I think you hit the nail on the head.
TULIA.........UFUNZWE!
simonkabz
#24 Posted : Thursday, February 06, 2014 10:48:31 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/2/2007
Posts: 8,776
Location: Cameroon
Back to Ethiopia vs Kenya, I want to use my own wicked ranking. We got quite a number of large developed towns n cities in almost every region, with Nbi hosting a larger population than Addis~I want to believe this is quite a good [rough] indicator of the status of the economy. Add the overall effect of 47 county HQs. How about Abyssinia?

Are the economic activities of ASAL areas captured anywhere esp livestock rearing by nomadic communities? I think we could be the tallest dwarf.
TULIA.........UFUNZWE!
kiash
#25 Posted : Thursday, February 06, 2014 11:02:17 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 4/27/2010
Posts: 951
Location: Nyumbani
willin2learn wrote:
Sasha should tell us what Ethiopians are doing differently.



Actually , there is one thing they are doing differently, they are giving out free land (well call it explo*****tion ) there is a story am sure some people here know about Sher Karuturi who have invested a lot in Ethiopia. They got free land to farm for several years and soon Ethiopia might be over taking Kenya as a source of those cursed flowers.But the price is like they did in Russia i hear people do not own land it belongs to the gov and the gov can give it to whoever it wishes . In this case Sher .
Mukiri
#26 Posted : Thursday, February 06, 2014 11:02:42 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/11/2012
Posts: 5,222
simonkabz wrote:
Back to Ethiopia vs Kenya, I want to use my own wicked ranking. We got quite a number of large developed towns n cities in almost every region, with Nbi hosting a larger population than Addis~I want to believe this is quite a good [rough] indicator of the status of the economy. Add the overall effect of 47 county HQs. How about Abyssinia?

Are the economic activities of ASAL areas captured anywhere esp livestock rearing by nomadic communities? I think we could be the tallest dwarf.

Quit pumping your bony chestsmile Imagine how large a country Ethiopia is. If all their economic activities were to be tabulated too, we might even appear shorter. Have you seen how popular their leather shoes are in Kenya? We have nothing on them when it comes to animal husbandry.

However, I think the devolution will propel this country to great heights. 'Eating' will no-longer be centralized at the national level where nothing was expected; at county level there is pressure to perform. What is happening to the Governor, in Embu is serving as an example, what is happening in Machakos is serving as a motivation.

In 10-20 years we'll be the tallest dwarf.

Proverbs 19:21
simonkabz
#27 Posted : Thursday, February 06, 2014 11:35:42 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/2/2007
Posts: 8,776
Location: Cameroon
Mukiri wrote:
simonkabz wrote:
Back to Ethiopia vs Kenya, I want to use my own wicked ranking. We got quite a number of large developed towns n cities in almost every region, with Nbi hosting a larger population than Addis~I want to believe this is quite a good [rough] indicator of the status of the economy. Add the overall effect of 47 county HQs. How about Abyssinia?

Are the economic activities of ASAL areas captured anywhere esp livestock rearing by nomadic communities? I think we could be the tallest dwarf.

Quit pumping your bony chestsmile Imagine how large a country Ethiopia is. If all their economic activities were to be tabulated too, we might even appear shorter. Have you seen how popular their leather shoes are in Kenya? We have nothing on them when it comes to animal husbandry.

However, I think the devolution will propel this country to great heights. 'Eating' will no-longer be centralized at the national level where nothing was expected; at county level there is pressure to perform. What is happening to the Governor, in Embu is serving as an example, what is happening in Machakos is serving as a motivation.

In 10-20 years we'll be the tallest dwarf.


Once the ongoing Djibouti~Addis SGR, JibeIII n the Grand renaissance dams are complete, the dust will choke us.
TULIA.........UFUNZWE!
Mukiri
#28 Posted : Thursday, February 06, 2014 11:39:20 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/11/2012
Posts: 5,222
simonkabz wrote:
Mukiri wrote:
simonkabz wrote:
Back to Ethiopia vs Kenya, I want to use my own wicked ranking. We got quite a number of large developed towns n cities in almost every region, with Nbi hosting a larger population than Addis~I want to believe this is quite a good [rough] indicator of the status of the economy. Add the overall effect of 47 county HQs. How about Abyssinia?

Are the economic activities of ASAL areas captured anywhere esp livestock rearing by nomadic communities? I think we could be the tallest dwarf.

Quit pumping your bony chestsmile Imagine how large a country Ethiopia is. If all their economic activities were to be tabulated too, we might even appear shorter. Have you seen how popular their leather shoes are in Kenya? We have nothing on them when it comes to animal husbandry.

However, I think the devolution will propel this country to great heights. 'Eating' will no-longer be centralized at the national level where nothing was expected; at county level there is pressure to perform. What is happening to the Governor, in Embu is serving as an example, what is happening in Machakos is serving as a motivation.

In 10-20 years we'll be the tallest dwarf.


Once the ongoing Djibouti~Addis SGR, JibeIII n the Grand renaissance dams are complete, the dust will choke us.

Our oil, coal? The irrigation schemes by Uhuru? Even the controversial rail hapana mchezo. Don't write us off yet. Corruption ndio shida

Proverbs 19:21
kiash
#29 Posted : Thursday, February 06, 2014 11:51:56 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 4/27/2010
Posts: 951
Location: Nyumbani
mpobiz
#30 Posted : Friday, February 07, 2014 12:13:33 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 8/10/2010
Posts: 2,264
kiash wrote:
willin2learn wrote:
Sasha should tell us what Ethiopians are doing differently.



Actually , there is one thing they are doing differently, they are giving out free land (well call it explo*****tion ) there is a story am sure some people here know about Sher Karuturi who have invested a lot in Ethiopia. They got free land to farm for several years and soon Ethiopia might be over taking Kenya as a source of those cursed flowers.But the price is like they did in Russia i hear people do not own land it belongs to the gov and the gov can give it to whoever it wishes . In this case Sher .

This is the biggest economic mistake a country can make , the government owning all the land. this has been discussed before here.
Politics is just things to keep the people divided and foolish and put your trust in men and none of them can do nothing for you...
Alba
#31 Posted : Friday, February 07, 2014 12:34:54 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/27/2012
Posts: 2,256
Location: Bandalungwa
Tribalism is finishing the country. Kenya had 10 wasted years under Kibaki in which the economy grew at a paltry 4% while all the neighbours grew at kitu 7%. If tribalism was insignificant like it is in Tanzania or even Uganda, we would have highly competent presidential candidates even as far back as 1963. But we still dont learn.

As someone has said above, Tanzania will pass Kenya during our lifetimes because even 20 years from now, Kenya will still be a tribal society.
simonkabz
#32 Posted : Friday, February 07, 2014 12:47:05 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/2/2007
Posts: 8,776
Location: Cameroon
Alba wrote:
Tribalism is finishing the country. Kenya had 10 wasted years under Kibaki in which the economy grew at a paltry 4% while all the neighbours grew at kitu 7%. If tribalism was insignificant like it is in Tanzania or even Uganda, we would have highly competent presidential candidates even as far back as 1963. But we still dont learn.

As someone has said above, Tanzania will pass Kenya during our lifetimes because even 20 years from now, Kenya will still be a tribal society.


So Kibaki is the one who wasted Kenya? Isorait. He must have destroyed Mois splendid works n achievements.

Such poor judgement, probably driven by the very tribalism you are pretending to castigate will never help Kenya either.
TULIA.........UFUNZWE!
Alba
#33 Posted : Friday, February 07, 2014 1:07:09 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/27/2012
Posts: 2,256
Location: Bandalungwa
simonkabz wrote:
Alba wrote:
Tribalism is finishing the country. Kenya had 10 wasted years under Kibaki in which the economy grew at a paltry 4% while all the neighbours grew at kitu 7%. If tribalism was insignificant like it is in Tanzania or even Uganda, we would have highly competent presidential candidates even as far back as 1963. But we still dont learn.

As someone has said above, Tanzania will pass Kenya during our lifetimes because even 20 years from now, Kenya will still be a tribal society.


So Kibaki is the one who wasted Kenya? Isorait. He must have destroyed Mois splendid works n achievements.

Such poor judgement, probably driven by the very tribalism you are pretending to castigate will never help Kenya either.



I havent a tribal agenda. But if you look at things objectively, Kibaki should never have been elected. He was a lousy cabinet minister. He was a lousy VP which is why Moi demoted him. And as President he did literally nothing. Plus he presided over one corruption scandal after another. And as has been correctly pointed out here, corruption is the number one enemy of Kenya's economy. Ultimately the buck stops with the president to stop corruption. But Kibaki never bothered.

If Kenya was not a tribal society then the people in leadership would have been people like Ronald Ngala, Tom Mboya, Pio Gama Pinto, JM Kariuki, Robert Ouko, Masinde Muliro.......... I.E hardworking leaders who have a nationalistic outlook and put the country first. Instead these leaders were wasted and people cheered or remained indifferent because they were told that tribal interests were more important and said leader had to be eliminated.

But since Kenya is a tribal society , we only vote for tribal chiefs who promote narrow tribal interests. We think first and foremost about what is good for the tribe instead of thinking about whats good for your individual bank account.

You can't possibly say with a straight face that Kibaki was good for Kenya. The truth is bitter but Kenyans must face up to the truth or continue lagging behind Ethiopia and now Tanzania. We cant keep white-washing our history.

Unless we learn to hold leaders accountable regardless of tribe, we are doomed. If corruption is the #1 enemy and a president does not address it and we still support him then Kenya is full of tribal sycophants.

Thats why I highly respect leaders like the late Rev Kipsang Muge and JM Kariuki who challenged their presidents on corruption even while risking being called a traitor.
murchr
#34 Posted : Friday, February 07, 2014 1:11:36 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
Alba wrote:
Tribalism is finishing the country. Kenya had 10 wasted years under Kibaki in which the economy grew at a paltry 4% while all the neighbours grew at kitu 7%. If tribalism was insignificant like it is in Tanzania or even Uganda, we would have highly competent presidential candidates even as far back as 1963. But we still dont learn.

As someone has said above, Tanzania will pass Kenya during our lifetimes because even 20 years from now, Kenya will still be a tribal society.


Kenya's best years were under Kibaki what are you telling us? U think growing an economy from a (-) to +7% is as easy as taking a flight of stairs? Our wasted years were in the 90s the years of (-) growth.
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
Alba
#35 Posted : Friday, February 07, 2014 1:21:08 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/27/2012
Posts: 2,256
Location: Bandalungwa
murchr wrote:
Alba wrote:
Tribalism is finishing the country. Kenya had 10 wasted years under Kibaki in which the economy grew at a paltry 4% while all the neighbours grew at kitu 7%. If tribalism was insignificant like it is in Tanzania or even Uganda, we would have highly competent presidential candidates even as far back as 1963. But we still dont learn.

As someone has said above, Tanzania will pass Kenya during our lifetimes because even 20 years from now, Kenya will still be a tribal society.


Kenya's best years were under Kibaki what are you telling us? U think growing an economy from a (-) to +7% is as easy as taking a flight of stairs? Our wasted years were in the 90s the years of (-) growth.


Kenya's GDP growth grew at a much slower rate than all the neighbors. That is the point of this thread. Countries like Ethiopia , Rwanda , Mozambique also had negative growth then went to growth rates of almost 10%

I say wasted years because Kibaki really had a good opportunity and a lot of goodwill to rectify the Nyayo error : In 2002, virtually the whole country was united behind Kibaki. No kenyan President has ever been elected with as much goodwill as Kibaki was in 2002.

But he wasted the opportunity to fight tribalism and deal with corruption. Instead of continuing the spirit of Unity that got him elected in 2002, he went back to his tribal cocoon and once again the country was split along tribal lines.

The 1990s were not just wasted years. Those were years of suffocation.
murchr
#36 Posted : Friday, February 07, 2014 1:51:03 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
Alba wrote:
murchr wrote:
Alba wrote:
Tribalism is finishing the country. Kenya had 10 wasted years under Kibaki in which the economy grew at a paltry 4% while all the neighbours grew at kitu 7%. If tribalism was insignificant like it is in Tanzania or even Uganda, we would have highly competent presidential candidates even as far back as 1963. But we still dont learn.

As someone has said above, Tanzania will pass Kenya during our lifetimes because even 20 years from now, Kenya will still be a tribal society.


Kenya's best years were under Kibaki what are you telling us? U think growing an economy from a (-) to +7% is as easy as taking a flight of stairs? Our wasted years were in the 90s the years of (-) growth.


Kenya's GDP growth grew at a much slower rate than all the neighbors. That is the point of this thread. Countries like Ethiopia , Rwanda , Mozambique also had negative growth then went to growth rates of almost 10%

I say wasted years because Kibaki really had a good opportunity and a lot of goodwill to rectify the Nyayo error : In 2002, virtually the whole country was united behind Kibaki. No kenyan President has ever been elected with as much goodwill as Kibaki was in 2002.

But he wasted the opportunity to fight tribalism and deal with corruption. Instead of continuing the spirit of Unity that got him elected in 2002, he went back to his tribal cocoon and once again the country was split along tribal lines.

The 1990s were not just wasted years. Those were years of suffocation.


Remove mozambique from that list. But the rest dictatorships work for their advantage. I wish we had Kibaki in place of Moi
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
simonkabz
#37 Posted : Friday, February 07, 2014 2:46:26 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/2/2007
Posts: 8,776
Location: Cameroon
I choose to ignore alba with all due respect. Baks remains the best finance minister this country ever had. Rudi shule usome kaka. I really hate liars.
TULIA.........UFUNZWE!
simonkabz
#38 Posted : Friday, February 07, 2014 2:58:53 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/2/2007
Posts: 8,776
Location: Cameroon
For Alba:

Mwai Kibaki (1969-1981): He
had grown through the Kanu
political system and
established himself as a
leading economist.
He introduced foreign
exchange controls and
import licensing controls.
He also introduced fiscal
and monetary controls.
Kibaki became the longest
serving man at Treasury.
The country, then under
strict economic controls,
enjoyed one of its longest
stretches of sustained
economic growth.

www.standardmedia.co.ke/...0036819&story_title=

Lies do choke me.

We have exhaustively debated baks [economic] successes n [political] failures as a president, so your views are time barred.


Back to the debate, I would love to get a comparative corruption index for Kenya n Abyssinia. Anyone?
TULIA.........UFUNZWE!
innairobi
#39 Posted : Friday, February 07, 2014 3:33:23 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 9/2/2010
Posts: 845
Kibaki was somewhat tragic. He simultaneously had what we needed (an economist) and what we did not need (tribalism and poor political strategy). Still, he was one of if not the best option among those presented to the electorate both in 2002 and 2007. You cannot be elected president if you do not offer yourself. And by the way, I do not buy into the narrative that a superstar private sector CEO will necessarily make a good president.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. Tribalism and poor political sense is Kibaki's legacy. But so is economic transformation. From virtually 0%, it took us 5 years to get to 7.1% when we were growing almost at par with Ethiopia. Then PEV happened, knocked us off that momentum and we have never fully recovered. Ethiopia overtook us in 2009.

Kibaki was elitist and perhaps uncomfortable with constant frenzied public rallies to announce his achievements. That though is not reason to take away from his positives. He made some fatal mistakes the most prominent being insensitivity to tribe dynamics. But several good things happened during his tenure whose impact will continue to be felt for decades to come e.g. education, roads, electricity, telecoms, banking, vision 2030 blueprint, the 2010 constitution etc.

That said, we obviously can do better.



Alba wrote:
murchr wrote:
Alba wrote:
Tribalism is finishing the country. Kenya had 10 wasted years under Kibaki in which the economy grew at a paltry 4% while all the neighbours grew at kitu 7%. If tribalism was insignificant like it is in Tanzania or even Uganda, we would have highly competent presidential candidates even as far back as 1963. But we still dont learn.

As someone has said above, Tanzania will pass Kenya during our lifetimes because even 20 years from now, Kenya will still be a tribal society.


Kenya's best years were under Kibaki what are you telling us? U think growing an economy from a (-) to +7% is as easy as taking a flight of stairs? Our wasted years were in the 90s the years of (-) growth.


Kenya's GDP growth grew at a much slower rate than all the neighbors. That is the point of this thread. Countries like Ethiopia , Rwanda , Mozambique also had negative growth then went to growth rates of almost 10%

I say wasted years because Kibaki really had a good opportunity and a lot of goodwill to rectify the Nyayo error : In 2002, virtually the whole country was united behind Kibaki. No kenyan President has ever been elected with as much goodwill as Kibaki was in 2002.

But he wasted the opportunity to fight tribalism and deal with corruption. Instead of continuing the spirit of Unity that got him elected in 2002, he went back to his tribal cocoon and once again the country was split along tribal lines.

The 1990s were not just wasted years. Those were years of suffocation.

All my friends are heathens, take it slow. Wait for them to ask you who you know. Please don't make any sudden moves.
murchr
#40 Posted : Friday, February 07, 2014 3:54:05 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
To me (ofcourse not to many Kenyans) tribalism is nonsense. I dont know why we care much about tribe what we should be after is ones qualifications. If the best man or woman gets an opportunity so be it, the profiling of tribes etc will be our downfall.

Now back to economic sense, Kenya will only develop faster if we become consumers of our what is made here. What will keep Kenyans in jobs that will enable them pay taxes. We are obsessed with imports but that only means we are exporting jobs. Once upon a time I asked a lady at Nakumatt why she opted for S.African popcorn instead of local produced grains - she gave me a look that I'll never forget. Do we have to import rice njugu honey sugar, what dont we import?
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
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