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Kikuyus, Please Come (Here)
Njung'e
#161 Posted : Sunday, December 01, 2013 7:24:03 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 2/7/2007
Posts: 11,935
Location: Nairobi
wairegi wrote:
Njung'e correct me..The Mbari ya Iregi.. is the generation that overthrew the women government ( Wangu wa makeri. This should have very few years before the white man and possibly 1800s.


Very interesting discussion


It is true Wairegi (I can see you are one),that the Iregi generation was preceded by Mathathi and Ndemi but i also have it that this was a delayed generation and could have existed long before as can be confirmed by the saying "gutiri wa Iregi utuire" which was widely used by the Mathathi and Ndemi generation.How could that have been possible?.I have it that the origin of the name was in the years of migration.The Agikuyu were the last to settle between Gaki (Nyeri) and Metumi (Murang'a) after their Embu cousins had taken the slopes east of Kirinyaga.There was an urge to find more and better land beyond the slopes of Southern Nyandarua,but once they reached the eastern escarpments of the RV (Limuru/Kikuyu area) and probably from the fear of falling off the earth,they refused to proceed hence the name Iregi.That might explain also why a majority of families with this names are to be found around the Limuru area (That would include your family and lineage i have no doubt).....Does the "thingira wa iregi" go beyond the hut that housed the "Iregis" after the "Wa Makeri's" overthrow?. YES!.Any "thingira" that housed the unruly son in any household was held by the same name.It is common to hear a father refer to his protesting son's hut as "thingira wa kiregi" and i guess this happened even before Wangu was around.How or why then is "thingira wa iregi " glorified?I would say it has more to do with machismo than authority.
Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm.
Wakanyugi
#162 Posted : Sunday, December 01, 2013 7:34:05 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,635
wa P wrote:



"Ndathire ku`rira mwere gatitu` ka mwere
Ngikinya kiura name ikinya kiura gitahutio ... no mention of ithanga.


You are singing the 'sanitized' Kabete version. The Muranga/Metumi version goes liked this:

"Ndathiire kurira mwere gatitu, Ithanga
Ngikinya kiura na ikinya, kiari kia mbarika
Kiurua kianjirire atiri; nginyukia ngwire...."


One question though: are there Nilotes and Cushites any south of Tanzania?


This an interesting thought. I know of no Cushites or Nilotes south of Central Tanzania (there are Nilotes in the north regions).

It seems like this part of Africa was the point of a massive 'clash of civilizations' in the recent past. The Nilotes, Cushites and Haamites arriving from the North, the Sahel and the Arabian peninsula clashed with the Bantu arriving from the South and West.

The result is, us, the strange mixture of peoples, languages and cultures that we are trying to unravel here.

A young historian will one day make a name for herself by focusing on this subject.
"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
Wakanyugi
#163 Posted : Sunday, December 01, 2013 7:55:49 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,635
Money Whisperer wrote:
The clans/dialect communities' dispersal spelt doom for the Thagichu tribe because the clans grew and attained an identity of their own and the name Thagichu became a distant memory only recollected in oral literature and names. at some point it became derogatory as it gained connotations of backwardness


I am still researching the Thagicu angle. So far my thesis is that this was another dispersion point. According to Were, the Bantu traveled north along the coast, the interior was too hostile. But every time they came to a major river, a group would break off and go up the river while others would remain. The Thagishu could be such a remnant.

The tendency of Gikuyu people to label their past in derogatory terms is well known. The people of Ndia were once labeled dumb (despite the fact that they were the origin of Gikuyu philosophy), the Ndorobo were equally seen as inferior people (remember the Gikuyu name for a poor man is 'Mugiiki' (Ogiek).

You could call it arrogance but I see this tendency as something deeper. A group who are desperate to own an invented narrative of origin, say to justify a land grab from hostile tribes, will do anything to deny their past and emphasize their present right of belonging.

And, lest I be accused - I do not see such adaptability as a bad thing. Just the reverse. History clearly shows that the flexible thrive while those too stiff to bend will eventually break and disappear.
"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
Wakanyugi
#164 Posted : Sunday, December 01, 2013 8:19:43 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,635
Njung'e wrote:
wairegi wrote:
Njung'e correct me..The Mbari ya Iregi.. is the generation that overthrew the women government ( Wangu wa makeri. This should have very few years before the white man and possibly 1800s.


Very interesting discussion


It is true Wairegi (I can see you are one),that the Iregi generation was preceded by Mathathi and Ndemi but i also have it that this was a delayed generation and could have existed long before as can be confirmed by the saying "gutiri wa Iregi utuire" which was widely used by the Mathathi and Ndemi generation.How could that have been possible?.I have it that the origin of the name was in the years of migration.The Agikuyu were the last to settle between Gaki (Nyeri) and Metumi (Murang'a) after their Embu cousins had taken the slopes east of Kirinyaga.There was an urge to find more and better land beyond the slopes of Southern Nyandarua,but once they reached the eastern escarpments of the RV (Limuru/Kikuyu area) and probably from the fear of falling off the earth,they refused to proceed hence the name Iregi.That might explain also why a majority of families with this names are to be found around the Limuru area (That would include your family and lineage i have no doubt).....Does the "thingira wa iregi" go beyond the hut that housed the "Iregis" after the "Wa Makeri's" overthrow?. YES!.Any "thingira" that housed the unruly son in any household was held by the same name.It is common to hear a father refer to his protesting son's hut as "thingira wa kiregi" and i guess this happened even before Wangu was around.How or why then is "thingira wa iregi " glorified?I would say it has more to do with machismo than authority.


Njunge, you have introduced an interesting angle here. It is very true that the naming patterns in Gikuyuland can be very revealing of the past. I wish somebody could do an anthropological mapping. The names that recall the earliest ancestors of the Agikuyu are found in the Kiambu area:
- Tene – Watene
- Mathathi – Mathathi
- Ndemi – Ndemi, Mutemi etc
- Iregi – Iregi, Wairegi

One the other hand the Maina, Mwangi, Irungu (the generations that followed Tene, Iregi, Ndemi and Mathathi, are found mostly in Muranga

In Nyeri you find names like Ndungu (from Mutungu/small pox), Ngunjiri, Maathai, Wangombe, Nyookabi/Wamaitha, Muriiithi etc that recall more recent events like the smallpox epidemic around 1850’s and the conflict and intermixing with the pastoralist Purko and Laikipiak Maasai and Samburu around the same time - as the Gikuyu pushed north along the Nyeri valley in search of good land.

This process of expansion ‘kuuna ithaka’ existed until the Whiteman interfered. In fact you could say it never ended, the reason we have such a huge Gikuyu diaspora today.

"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
Wakanyugi
#165 Posted : Sunday, December 01, 2013 8:33:45 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,635
wa P wrote:


And thanks Wakanyugi your posts are interesting even though the Kamba as progenitor of Kikuyu is doubtful.


I would not mind being proved wrong. But, from where I sit, the evidence is simply overwhelming.

There could be a way we can lay this matter to rest. Most of these community 'breaks' in the past used to be wrenching, painful events that sometimes pitted brother against brother. Some of these events would often be recorded in community oral stories.

Do the Kamba have such stories of a group that broke away in the past and headed west?

Can someone get Magigi for us?
"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
Mpenzi
#166 Posted : Sunday, December 01, 2013 9:17:05 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 10/17/2008
Posts: 1,234
Wakanyugi wrote:
wa P wrote:



"Ndathire ku`rira mwere gatitu` ka mwere
Ngikinya kiura name ikinya kiura gitahutio ... no mention of ithanga.


You are singing the 'sanitized' Kabete version. The Muranga/Metumi version goes liked this:

"Ndathiire kurira mwere gatitu, Ithanga
Ngikinya kiura na ikinya, kiari kia mbarika
Kiurua kianjirire atiri; nginyukia ngwire...."


One question though: are there Nilotes and Cushites any south of Tanzania?


This an interesting thought. I know of no Cushites or Nilotes south of Central Tanzania (there are Nilotes in the north regions).

It seems like this part of Africa was the point of a massive 'clash of civilizations' in the recent past. The Nilotes, Cushites and Haamites arriving from the North, the Sahel and the Arabian peninsula clashed with the Bantu arriving from the South and West.

The result is, us, the strange mixture of peoples, languages and cultures that we are trying to unravel here.

A young historian will one day make a name for herself by focusing on this subject.


Wakanyugi, Why do you make so much out of Ithanga? This seems to have been merely a place of dispersal of the Thagicu that became Kambas, Gikuyus, Embus, Merus?
Njung'e
#167 Posted : Sunday, December 01, 2013 9:49:59 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 2/7/2007
Posts: 11,935
Location: Nairobi
Mpenzi wrote:
[quote=Wakanyugi][quote=wa P]

Wakanyugi, Why do you make so much out of Ithanga? This seems to have been merely a place of dispersal of the Thagicu that became Kambas, Gikuyus, Embus, Merus?


I highly doubt (Yes,i want to differ with history and historians thus far) that Ithanga was a dispersal place of the Thagicu and i think this is why.

1.There exists Akambas amongst the Pare tribe of TZ and this could only have happened during migration period meaning the Akambas took a different route to their present land.

2.The Segejus of Tanzania are equally Thagicus which means the place of dispersal was somewhere in TZ or further otherwise they couldn't have migrated from Kenya.

What can we conclude from this then?

@Wakanyugi,

It cannot be true that the word mugiiki comes from "Ogiek".....That is a totally misleading, unless you want to tell the whole world that the word "Ogiek" made Gikuyu language.Mugiiki comes from the word "Kugiika" (Kujigongagonga)smile
Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm.
Mpenzi
#168 Posted : Sunday, December 01, 2013 10:14:42 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 10/17/2008
Posts: 1,234
Njung'e wrote:
Mpenzi wrote:
[quote=Wakanyugi][quote=wa P]

Wakanyugi, Why do you make so much out of Ithanga? This seems to have been merely a place of dispersal of the Thagicu that became Kambas, Gikuyus, Embus, Merus?


I highly doubt (Yes,i want to differ with history and historians thus far) that Ithanga was a dispersal place of the Thagicu and i think this is why.

1.There exists Akambas amongst the Pare tribe of TZ and this could only have happened during migration period meaning the Akambas took a different route to their present land.

2.The Segejus of Tanzania are equally Thagicus which means the place of dispersal was somewhere in TZ or further otherwise they couldn't have migrated from Kenya.

What can we conclude from this then?

@Wakanyugi,

It cannot be true that the word mugiiki comes from "Ogiek".....That is a totally misleading, unless you want to tell the whole world that the word "Ogiek" made Gikuyu language.Mugiiki comes from the word "Kugiika" (Kujigongagonga)smile


Lol, Wakanyugi has list of theories without backup
masukuma
#169 Posted : Sunday, December 01, 2013 11:29:05 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
Mpenzi wrote:
Njung'e wrote:
Mpenzi wrote:
[quote=Wakanyugi][quote=wa P]

Wakanyugi, Why do you make so much out of Ithanga? This seems to have been merely a place of dispersal of the Thagicu that became Kambas, Gikuyus, Embus, Merus?


I highly doubt (Yes,i want to differ with history and historians thus far) that Ithanga was a dispersal place of the Thagicu and i think this is why.

1.There exists Akambas amongst the Pare tribe of TZ and this could only have happened during migration period meaning the Akambas took a different route to their present land.

2.The Segejus of Tanzania are equally Thagicus which means the place of dispersal was somewhere in TZ or further otherwise they couldn't have migrated from Kenya.

What can we conclude from this then?

@Wakanyugi,

It cannot be true that the word mugiiki comes from "Ogiek".....That is a totally misleading, unless you want to tell the whole world that the word "Ogiek" made Gikuyu language.Mugiiki comes from the word "Kugiika" (Kujigongagonga)smile


Lol, Wakanyugi has list of theories without backup

they call Kaleos Rumbwa possibly because of the treaty between the kipsigis and the british (http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/2843751?uid=3739256&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21103094239193)
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
Money Whisperer
#170 Posted : Sunday, December 01, 2013 12:20:45 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 8/7/2010
Posts: 728
Location: Wazuaville
@Wakanyugi, to put the discussion in greater perspective, we must recall that dispersals occurred frequently and thus we have many dispersal points. what historians focus on are the major dispersal points involving tribes/dialect communities, but not on minor dispersal points where clans and even blood brothers parted ways. Sagana/Tana river was the main migratory path with the source being the true north. families and dialect communities settled along the river once they felt they liked the place and were no longer interested in venturing further. The dense forest along the river was dangerous and so migrants had to stick to the river. as the late migrants moved along the river, they would stop for refreshments and rest (R&R) and their tribesmates would come to the river to welcome them (guthagana) hence Thagana River. Those who chose to remain started work immediately of cutting down trees and settling down others moved on after the rest. These minor dispersal points are rarely focussed on but still remain in orature. Ithanga was a dispersal point for the GEMA (include Akamba here). Ithanga could be from the word assembly like sand (ta muthanga) that is an assembly of many particles. At this assembly the last major migratory path for the clans was mapped out. Assuming the Gikuyu myth is not accurate then Mukurwe wa Nyagathanga might have been the assembly point for the Gikuyu where the leader Gikuyu formerly decided to delink Gikuyu from Thagichu (by pronouncing them as mbari ya Gikuyu that later became muhiriga wa Gikuyu then ruriri rwa Gikuyu) and start his tribe and dispersed his family in the directions where they Gikuyu settled.
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