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If God knew that Satan would rebel and Adam and Eve would sin, why did He create them?
Rank: Member Joined: 8/7/2012 Posts: 180
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Muriel wrote:symbols wrote:Muriel wrote:Quote:But since God created Lucifer, isn't He really responsible for his sin?
Not at all. God created Lucifer a perfect, sinless angel. Lucifer made a devil of himself. Freedom to choose is a cornerstone principle of God's government. God knew Lucifer would sin when He created him. If at that point God had refused to create him, He would have been repudiating that prime principle of free choice.
"Freedom to Choose" is God's Way
So, knowing full well what Lucifer would do, God still created him. The same facts apply to the creation of Adam and Eve. And, closer to home, these facts apply to you and me. God knows before we are born how we will live, but even so, He permits us to live and choose whether to endorse His government or Satan's. God is willing to be misunderstood and falsely accused and blamed for ages, while taking the time to allow every person to freely choose whom he will follow.
Only a Loving God Would Risk Granting Full Freedom for All
This glorious, crucial gift of freedom could come only from a just, open, loving God. It is an honor and joy to serve such a Lord and friend. I do believe God is Love.Question is why? Quote:
Why didn't God destroy the devil when he sinned, and thus end the sin problem?
Because sin was something completely new in God's universe, and its inhabitants did not understand it. Probably even Lucifer himself did not fully comprehend it at first. Lucifer was a brilliant, highly respected angelic leader. His approach was doubtless one of great concern for heaven and the angels. It possibly ran something like this: "Heaven is good, but it would be improved with more angel input. Too much unchallenged authority (as the Father and Son have) tends to blind leaders to real life. Angels should not be required to take orders. We should give orders. God knows my suggestions are correct, and He is feeling threatened. We must not permit our noble leaders who are out of touch to jeopardize the very existence of heaven. They will listen if we move in unison. We must not be weak we must act. Otherwise, we will all be ruined by a government that doesn't appreciate us."
One-Third of the Angels Joined Lucifer
Lucifer's arguments convinced many angels, and one-third joined him. If God had destroyed Lucifer immediately, some angelic beings who did not fully understand God's character may have begun to worship God through fear, saying, "Lucifer may have been correct. Be careful. If you differ with God, He may kill you." So nothing would have been settled. Instead, the problem would have been heightened.
God Accepts Only Loving, Voluntary Service
The only service acceptable to God is cheerful, voluntary service prompted by love. Obedience for any other reason is unacceptable.
God Is Giving Satan Time to Demonstrate His Principles
Satan claimed he had a better plan for the government of the universe. God is giving him time to demonstrate its principles. The Lord will abolish sin only after every soul in the universe is convinced that Satan's government is unfair, hateful, ruthless, lying, and destructive.
The Universe Is Watching This World
The Bible says, "We are made a spectacle [margin says "theatre"] unto the world, and to angels, and to men." 1 Corinthians 4:9. The entire universe is watching as we each play a part in the controversy between Christ and Satan. As the controversy ends, every soul will fully understand the principles of both kingdoms and will have chosen to follow either Christ or Satan. Those who have chosen to ally with sin and Satan will be destroyed with him, and God's people will be taken to the eternal safety of their heavenly home.
I like ua insight especially the highlighted. Eagles don't flock, you have to find them one at a time.
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Rank: Member Joined: 8/7/2012 Posts: 180
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wilyum wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:seppuku wrote: I can, however, infer that you are referring to the God of the Bible. Discussions about God are often colored by religious context. For instance many assume, wrongly, that God is limited to the deity described in the Christian Bible. In fact the Bible describes at least two Gods: the 'God of vengeance' in the old Testament and the 'God who is love' in the new. Note that both beings are plural entities, not singular. I am sure other religions have their own definitions too with varying nuances. But I believe the important point is your personal belief and the relationship you have with God, whoever you consider him/her/it to be. To paraphrase Jesus words: 'Whom do you believe God is?' seppuku wrote: Now, the God of the Bible has certain salient characteristics revealed in his Book. Among them are:
1) Omniscience - God is all knowing
2) Omnipotence - God is all powerful
3) Benevolence - God is good
I think a further point arises here. God could be all these things but he has the ultimate freedom to act. Therefore God can (and does, I believe) set aside the exercise of any of these powers, or delegate them to his creation as he pleases. This partly explains the 'illusion of separation,' where the creations of God have fallen in the deep sleep of believing they are separate from their creator. Yet almost every religion hammers this point over and over again 'God is in us/ we are in God/ we are made in Gods image/ God is omnipresent' etc etc. I wonder why it is so hard to get this simple message. are you implying that am God in a way? Yes. You want proof?? Eagles don't flock, you have to find them one at a time.
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Rank: Member Joined: 8/7/2012 Posts: 180
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wilyum wrote:am wondering,anyone can explain this? It lies in God's "Holiness". Eagles don't flock, you have to find them one at a time.
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Rank: Member Joined: 8/7/2012 Posts: 180
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harrydre wrote:Muriel wrote:Quote:This glorious, crucial gift of freedom could come only from a just, open, loving God. It is an honor and joy to serve such a Lord and friend. So if God is/was so loving, why allow his creations to sin thus suffer in hell? he should just have done away with sinuous activities. @ harrydre - It has all to do with his "holiness" which is closely related to His "integrity". Eagles don't flock, you have to find them one at a time.
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Rank: Member Joined: 8/7/2012 Posts: 180
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symbols wrote:Muriel wrote:Quote:But since God created Lucifer, isn't He really responsible for his sin?
Not at all. God created Lucifer a perfect, sinless angel. Lucifer made a devil of himself. Freedom to choose is a cornerstone principle of God's government. God knew Lucifer would sin when He created him. If at that point God had refused to create him, He would have been repudiating that prime principle of free choice.
"Freedom to Choose" is God's Way
So, knowing full well what Lucifer would do, God still created him. The same facts apply to the creation of Adam and Eve. And, closer to home, these facts apply to you and me. God knows before we are born how we will live, but even so, He permits us to live and choose whether to endorse His government or Satan's. God is willing to be misunderstood and falsely accused and blamed for ages, while taking the time to allow every person to freely choose whom he will follow.
Only a Loving God Would Risk Granting Full Freedom for All
This glorious, crucial gift of freedom could come only from a just, open, loving God. It is an honor and joy to serve such a Lord and friend. I do believe God is Love.Question is why? @ symbols The "why" i s coz of his "holiness (integrity)" Eagles don't flock, you have to find them one at a time.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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wilyum wrote:am wondering,anyone can explain this? @wilyum if you look at Satan and Adam, both of them disobeyed Allah. Adam disobeyed Allah and ate from the tree. Satan disobeyed Allah and didn't bow in honour before Adam. So if you say why did Allah crate Satan yet he would rebel, what about Adam? So you would have to say why did Allah create Adam also.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
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Philip Ochieng is just another net 'importer of religion'. He even sports the tag 'Philip'. No difference.[/quote] "What is in a name?" quoth the great Bard. Ochieng by any other name would be just as smart. I may wear no Mzungu name, but I can not hold a candle to Phillips great intellect. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,980
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ou5pzKuKP8whttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQ1Oz6K4rOIEmancipate yourselves from mental slavery "There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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XSK wrote:tycho wrote:wilyum wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:seppuku wrote: I can, however, infer that you are referring to the God of the Bible. Discussions about God are often colored by religious context. For instance many assume, wrongly, that God is limited to the deity described in the Christian Bible. In fact the Bible describes at least two Gods: the 'God of vengeance' in the old Testament and the 'God who is love' in the new. Note that both beings are plural entities, not singular. I am sure other religions have their own definitions too with varying nuances. But I believe the important point is your personal belief and the relationship you have with God, whoever you consider him/her/it to be. To paraphrase Jesus words: 'Whom do you believe God is?' seppuku wrote: Now, the God of the Bible has certain salient characteristics revealed in his Book. Among them are:
1) Omniscience - God is all knowing
2) Omnipotence - God is all powerful
3) Benevolence - God is good
I think a further point arises here. God could be all these things but he has the ultimate freedom to act. Therefore God can (and does, I believe) set aside the exercise of any of these powers, or delegate them to his creation as he pleases. This partly explains the 'illusion of separation,' where the creations of God have fallen in the deep sleep of believing they are separate from their creator. Yet almost every religion hammers this point over and over again 'God is in us/ we are in God/ we are made in Gods image/ God is omnipresent' etc etc. I wonder why it is so hard to get this simple message. are you implying that am God in a way? Of course you are! @tycho Have you read these two books? 1. Conversations with God 2. Home with God I find your "philosophy" strangely related to what the author of those two books attempts to put across to the rest of the humanity. No. I haven't read the books. But I checked on them and I found some treasure. Like, the idea of reincarnation, I just saw it fade out of relevance. How is it possible that two different people, seperated in spacetime have similar thoughts or even personalities? We like to think we are unique as individuals, but experience has proven my bias wrong. Personalities have patterns to the very 'least of symbols'. And patterns mean information templates or 'morphogenetic' systems that are linked to what I may call a 'human domain', which in turn entails 'everything'. That is, everything is linked to everything in an information network that travels very very fast. To and fro. And all this cosmic data is energy, and is intelligent in that it's goal is to preserve and conserve itself always. Being, is a 'data instance' or a pattern instance, but there are many data instances, which can be acquired or experienced. One only has to reach for them. So what links me to 'your writer are the questions we'd like answered. And others before sought to answer these questions; and their answers are stored in quantum packets. If you sync with their frequencies then you can share the data sets. Therefore one can be whoever he chooses to be at any time, with minimum physical motion. Like in a dream. Life is a cosmic dream, and Man is the dreamer. The grand architect. Death, somehow, is so easily conquered. In fact, there's no death. Knowing isn't just remembering, but creating. Becoming.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Wakanyugi wrote:tycho wrote:
For example, how would one explain Mohammed's move to monotheism in a largely polytheistic world?
You should have a conversation with Ochieng of the DN. Today I would argue, he is one of the foremost authorities on Egyptian mythology - since the great Cheick Anta Diop passed away. According to Ochieng, Moses was one and the same man as Pharaoh Akhenation. History says Akhenaton was the inventor of monotheism in Egypt and started the worship of Aten 'the one god.' He got into serious trouble for it. He was overthrown, his cities and temples destroyed and the worshipers of Aten scattered to the four winds. If Ochieng is to be believed, this is how Moses/Akhenaton came to lead some of his followers (the Israelites) out of Egypt into the desert. Here their monotheistic belief system survived for thousands of years, despite being surrounded by polytheistic tribes, until the Greeks and Romans (through Christianity) and the Arabs (through Islam) made it the default belief system for much of the World. For us, the southern dispersal of Akhenatons followers could explain why monotheism is so common among East and Southern African tribes,(compare with West Africa). It could also explain how so many ancient Egyptian words and Jewish religious rituals have found their way into the languages and traditional worship of people like the Masai, Kalenjin, Borana, Kikuyu, Chagga etc. This theory is probable, especially when we consider that persons are data sets that exhibit 'quantum tunneling'. But thinking of it this way seems to blunt African heritage. But the true African spirit wasn't seperatist, but universalist. The 'Ka' is 'buried' with ornaments and utensils because it's alive. And polytheism is a summative experience of the unnameable. Abrahamic religions are exclusivist. But something interesting happens in the 'new testament'. Paul seeks inclusiveness. This must mean 'polytheism'. But the 'polytheism' is sublimated. For example, it's easy for one to say that Christianity is essentially polytheistic courtesy of its coexisting factions, and that Ecumenism is possible if the levels of sublimation are raised. Akhenaton also sublimated polytheism. But the general citizen couldn't handle the weight, hence their reaction. Not even Muslims have escaped sublimated polytheism. Not even Solomon could escape it, despite his wisdom.
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