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If God knew that Satan would rebel and Adam and Eve would sin, why did He create them?
tycho
#21 Posted : Friday, November 08, 2013 10:51:44 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
wilyum wrote:
am wondering,anyone can explain this?


Mythically speaking, so that He could exact obedience from Man and all 'creation'.

Moses was learned in the Egyptian ways, as it's said. This meant that he was educated and socialized in a 'polytheistic' world, but this world couldn't sustain his political ambition. A monotheistic world born of polytheism could only exact strict obedience.
Wakanyugi
#22 Posted : Friday, November 08, 2013 10:54:52 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,635
seppuku wrote:
I can, however, infer that you are referring to the God of the Bible.


Discussions about God are often colored by religious context. For instance many assume, wrongly, that God is limited to the deity described in the Christian Bible.

In fact the Bible describes at least two Gods: the 'God of vengeance' in the old Testament and the 'God who is love' in the new. Note that both beings are plural entities, not singular. I am sure other religions have their own definitions too with varying nuances.

But I believe the important point is your personal belief and the relationship you have with God, whoever you consider him/her/it to be. To paraphrase Jesus words: 'Whom do you believe God is?'

seppuku wrote:
Now, the God of the Bible has certain salient characteristics revealed in his Book. Among them are:

1) Omniscience - God is all knowing

2) Omnipotence - God is all powerful

3) Benevolence - God is good


I think a further point arises here. God could be all these things but he has the ultimate freedom to act. Therefore God can (and does, I believe) set aside the exercise of any of these powers, or delegate them to his creation as he pleases.

This partly explains the 'illusion of separation,' where the creations of God have fallen in the deep sleep of believing they are separate from their creator.

Yet almost every religion hammers this point over and over again 'God is in us/ we are in God/ we are made in Gods image/ God is omnipresent' etc etc.

I wonder why it is so hard to get this simple message.



"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
Muriel
#23 Posted : Friday, November 08, 2013 11:07:23 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 11/19/2009
Posts: 3,142
tycho wrote:
wilyum wrote:
am wondering,anyone can explain this?


Mythically speaking, so that He could exact obedience from Man and all 'creation'.

Moses was learned in the Egyptian ways, as it's said. This meant that he was educated and socialized in a 'polytheistic' world, but this world couldn't sustain his political ambition. A monotheistic world born of polytheism could only exact strict obedience.


Am wondering,

Yes Moses was learned in Egyptian polytheistic ways, but have you considered that for the first decade or so of his life he got a different, monotheistic education? An education that polytheistic eduction and socialization and proximity to political power could not erase? Therefore I think monotheism was not born of polytheism after all.

Or how do you see it?
wilyum
#24 Posted : Friday, November 08, 2013 12:02:58 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 12/21/2011
Posts: 1,010
Wakanyugi wrote:
seppuku wrote:
I can, however, infer that you are referring to the God of the Bible.


Discussions about God are often colored by religious context. For instance many assume, wrongly, that God is limited to the deity described in the Christian Bible.

In fact the Bible describes at least two Gods: the 'God of vengeance' in the old Testament and the 'God who is love' in the new. Note that both beings are plural entities, not singular. I am sure other religions have their own definitions too with varying nuances.

But I believe the important point is your personal belief and the relationship you have with God, whoever you consider him/her/it to be. To paraphrase Jesus words: 'Whom do you believe God is?'

seppuku wrote:
Now, the God of the Bible has certain salient characteristics revealed in his Book. Among them are:

1) Omniscience - God is all knowing

2) Omnipotence - God is all powerful

3) Benevolence - God is good


I think a further point arises here. God could be all these things but he has the ultimate freedom to act. Therefore God can (and does, I believe) set aside the exercise of any of these powers, or delegate them to his creation as he pleases.

This partly explains the 'illusion of separation,' where the creations of God have fallen in the deep sleep of believing they are separate from their creator.

Yet almost every religion hammers this point over and over again 'God is in us/ we are in God/ we are made in Gods image/ God is omnipresent' etc etc.

I wonder why it is so hard to get this simple message.






are you implying that am God in a way?
tycho
#25 Posted : Friday, November 08, 2013 1:52:14 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Muriel wrote:
tycho wrote:
wilyum wrote:
am wondering,anyone can explain this?


Mythically speaking, so that He could exact obedience from Man and all 'creation'.

Moses was learned in the Egyptian ways, as it's said. This meant that he was educated and socialized in a 'polytheistic' world, but this world couldn't sustain his political ambition. A monotheistic world born of polytheism could only exact strict obedience.


Am wondering,

Yes Moses was learned in Egyptian polytheistic ways, but have you considered that for the first decade or so of his life he got a different, monotheistic education? An education that polytheistic eduction and socialization and proximity to political power could not erase? Therefore I think monotheism was not born of polytheism after all.

Or how do you see it?


The assumption that lessons that were learnt in early childhood can't be unlearned isn't true. Otherwise there'd be nothing like freedom.

For example, how would one explain Mohammed's move to monotheism in a largely polytheistic world?



tycho
#26 Posted : Friday, November 08, 2013 1:54:53 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
wilyum wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
seppuku wrote:
I can, however, infer that you are referring to the God of the Bible.


Discussions about God are often colored by religious context. For instance many assume, wrongly, that God is limited to the deity described in the Christian Bible.

In fact the Bible describes at least two Gods: the 'God of vengeance' in the old Testament and the 'God who is love' in the new. Note that both beings are plural entities, not singular. I am sure other religions have their own definitions too with varying nuances.

But I believe the important point is your personal belief and the relationship you have with God, whoever you consider him/her/it to be. To paraphrase Jesus words: 'Whom do you believe God is?'

seppuku wrote:
Now, the God of the Bible has certain salient characteristics revealed in his Book. Among them are:

1) Omniscience - God is all knowing

2) Omnipotence - God is all powerful

3) Benevolence - God is good


I think a further point arises here. God could be all these things but he has the ultimate freedom to act. Therefore God can (and does, I believe) set aside the exercise of any of these powers, or delegate them to his creation as he pleases.

This partly explains the 'illusion of separation,' where the creations of God have fallen in the deep sleep of believing they are separate from their creator.

Yet almost every religion hammers this point over and over again 'God is in us/ we are in God/ we are made in Gods image/ God is omnipresent' etc etc.

I wonder why it is so hard to get this simple message.






are you implying that am God in a way?


Of course you are!
Wakanyugi
#27 Posted : Friday, November 08, 2013 2:18:31 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,635
tycho wrote:


For example, how would one explain Mohammed's move to monotheism in a largely polytheistic world?



You should have a conversation with Ochieng of the DN. Today I would argue, he is one of the foremost authorities on Egyptian mythology - since the great Cheick Anta Diop passed away.

According to Ochieng, Moses was one and the same man as Pharaoh Akhenation.

History says Akhenaton was the inventor of monotheism in Egypt and started the worship of Aten 'the one god.'

He got into serious trouble for it. He was overthrown, his cities and temples destroyed and the worshipers of Aten scattered to the four winds.

If Ochieng is to be believed, this is how Moses/Akhenaton came to lead some of his followers (the Israelites) out of Egypt into the desert. Here their monotheistic belief system survived for thousands of years, despite being surrounded by polytheistic tribes, until the Greeks and Romans (through Christianity) and the Arabs (through Islam) made it the default belief system for much of the World.

For us, the southern dispersal of Akhenatons followers could explain why monotheism is so common among East and Southern African tribes,(compare with West Africa). It could also explain how so many ancient Egyptian words and Jewish religious rituals have found their way into the languages and traditional worship of people like the Masai, Kalenjin, Borana, Kikuyu, Chagga etc.
"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
Muriel
#28 Posted : Friday, November 08, 2013 3:17:01 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 11/19/2009
Posts: 3,142
tycho wrote:
Muriel wrote:
tycho wrote:
wilyum wrote:
am wondering,anyone can explain this?


Mythically speaking, so that He could exact obedience from Man and all 'creation'.

Moses was learned in the Egyptian ways, as it's said. This meant that he was educated and socialized in a 'polytheistic' world, but this world couldn't sustain his political ambition. A monotheistic world born of polytheism could only exact strict obedience.


Am wondering,

Yes Moses was learned in Egyptian polytheistic ways, but have you considered that for the first decade or so of his life he got a different, monotheistic education? An education that polytheistic eduction and socialization and proximity to political power could not erase? Therefore I think monotheism was not born of polytheism after all.

Or how do you see it?


The assumption that lessons that were learnt in early childhood can't be unlearned isn't true. Otherwise there'd be nothing like freedom.

For example, how would one explain Mohammed's move to monotheism in a largely polytheistic world?





St. Ignatius Loyola is alleged to have said "Give me the child for seven years, and I will give you the man."

The impact of information fed to a tabula rasa must not be underestimated at all costs. All information is retained and it creates the person.

For example, one can get religious instruction when young but end up being atheist as an adult. The latter condition of being atheist was contributed to by the information he received earlier. Now how he interpreted and understood the information is what should be discussed.



Muriel
#29 Posted : Friday, November 08, 2013 3:25:07 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 11/19/2009
Posts: 3,142
Wakanyugi wrote:
tycho wrote:


For example, how would one explain Mohammed's move to monotheism in a largely polytheistic world?



You should have a conversation with Ochieng of the DN. Today I would argue, he is one of the foremost authorities on Egyptian mythology - since the great Cheick Anta Diop passed away.

According to Ochieng, Moses was one and the same man as Pharaoh Akhenation.

History says Akhenaton was the inventor of monotheism in Egypt and started the worship of Aten 'the one god.'

He got into serious trouble for it. He was overthrown, his cities and temples destroyed and the worshipers of Aten scattered to the four winds.

If Ochieng is to be believed, this is how Moses/Akhenaton came to lead some of his followers (the Israelites) out of Egypt into the desert. Here their monotheistic belief system survived for thousands of years, despite being surrounded by polytheistic tribes, until the Greeks and Romans (through Christianity) and the Arabs (through Islam) made it the default belief system for much of the World.

For us, the southern dispersal of Akhenatons followers could explain why monotheism is so common among East and Southern African tribes,(compare with West Africa). It could also explain how so many ancient Egyptian words and Jewish religious rituals have found their way into the languages and traditional worship of people like the Masai, Kalenjin, Borana, Kikuyu, Chagga etc.


Philip Ochieng is just another net 'importer of religion'.

He even sports the tag 'Philip'.

No difference.
XSK
#30 Posted : Friday, November 08, 2013 3:41:00 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 12/8/2009
Posts: 975
Location: Nairobi
tycho wrote:
wilyum wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
seppuku wrote:
I can, however, infer that you are referring to the God of the Bible.


Discussions about God are often colored by religious context. For instance many assume, wrongly, that God is limited to the deity described in the Christian Bible.

In fact the Bible describes at least two Gods: the 'God of vengeance' in the old Testament and the 'God who is love' in the new. Note that both beings are plural entities, not singular. I am sure other religions have their own definitions too with varying nuances.

But I believe the important point is your personal belief and the relationship you have with God, whoever you consider him/her/it to be. To paraphrase Jesus words: 'Whom do you believe God is?'

seppuku wrote:
Now, the God of the Bible has certain salient characteristics revealed in his Book. Among them are:

1) Omniscience - God is all knowing

2) Omnipotence - God is all powerful

3) Benevolence - God is good


I think a further point arises here. God could be all these things but he has the ultimate freedom to act. Therefore God can (and does, I believe) set aside the exercise of any of these powers, or delegate them to his creation as he pleases.

This partly explains the 'illusion of separation,' where the creations of God have fallen in the deep sleep of believing they are separate from their creator.

Yet almost every religion hammers this point over and over again 'God is in us/ we are in God/ we are made in Gods image/ God is omnipresent' etc etc.

I wonder why it is so hard to get this simple message.






are you implying that am God in a way?


Of course you are!


@tycho

Have you read these two books?

1. Conversations with God
2. Home with God

I find your "philosophy" strangely related to what the author of those two books attempts to put across to the rest of the humanity.
You will know that you have arrived when money and time are not mutually exclusive "events" in you life!
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