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If God knew that Satan would rebel and Adam and Eve would sin, why did He create them?
Muriel
#11 Posted : Thursday, November 07, 2013 4:51:24 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 11/19/2009
Posts: 3,142
symbols wrote:
Muriel wrote:
Quote:
But since God created Lucifer, isn't He really responsible for his sin?
Not at all. God created Lucifer a perfect, sinless angel. Lucifer made a devil of himself. Freedom to choose is a cornerstone principle of God's government. God knew Lucifer would sin when He created him. If at that point God had refused to create him, He would have been repudiating that prime principle of free choice.

"Freedom to Choose" is God's Way
So, knowing full well what Lucifer would do, God still created him. The same facts apply to the creation of Adam and Eve. And, closer to home, these facts apply to you and me. God knows before we are born how we will live, but even so, He permits us to live and choose whether to endorse His government or Satan's. God is willing to be misunderstood and falsely accused and blamed for ages, while taking the time to allow every person to freely choose whom he will follow.

Only a Loving God Would Risk Granting Full Freedom for All
This glorious, crucial gift of freedom could come only from a just, open, loving God. It is an honor and joy to serve such a Lord and friend.


I do believe God is Love.Question is why?


Quote:

Why didn't God destroy the devil when he sinned, and thus end the sin problem?
Because sin was something completely new in God's universe, and its inhabitants did not understand it. Probably even Lucifer himself did not fully comprehend it at first. Lucifer was a brilliant, highly respected angelic leader. His approach was doubtless one of great concern for heaven and the angels. It possibly ran something like this: "Heaven is good, but it would be improved with more angel input. Too much unchallenged authority (as the Father and Son have) tends to blind leaders to real life. Angels should not be required to take orders. We should give orders. God knows my suggestions are correct, and He is feeling threatened. We must not permit our noble leaders who are out of touch to jeopardize the very existence of heaven. They will listen if we move in unison. We must not be weak we must act. Otherwise, we will all be ruined by a government that doesn't appreciate us."

One-Third of the Angels Joined Lucifer
Lucifer's arguments convinced many angels, and one-third joined him. If God had destroyed Lucifer immediately, some angelic beings who did not fully understand God's character may have begun to worship God through fear, saying, "Lucifer may have been correct. Be careful. If you differ with God, He may kill you." So nothing would have been settled. Instead, the problem would have been heightened.

God Accepts Only Loving, Voluntary Service
The only service acceptable to God is cheerful, voluntary service prompted by love. Obedience for any other reason is unacceptable.

God Is Giving Satan Time to Demonstrate His Principles
Satan claimed he had a better plan for the government of the universe. God is giving him time to demonstrate its principles. The Lord will abolish sin only after every soul in the universe is convinced that Satan's government is unfair, hateful, ruthless, lying, and destructive.

The Universe Is Watching This World
The Bible says, "We are made a spectacle [margin says "theatre"] unto the world, and to angels, and to men." 1 Corinthians 4:9. The entire universe is watching as we each play a part in the controversy between Christ and Satan. As the controversy ends, every soul will fully understand the principles of both kingdoms and will have chosen to follow either Christ or Satan. Those who have chosen to ally with sin and Satan will be destroyed with him, and God's people will be taken to the eternal safety of their heavenly home.
symbols
#12 Posted : Thursday, November 07, 2013 4:52:36 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 3/19/2013
Posts: 2,552
wilyum wrote:
smano wrote:
muganda wrote:
FREE WILL


Are you saying God does not know what your free will is going to tell you to do?



he is omniscient,meaning all knowing,he knows what you will do


Cookie jar indeed.I can't resist.Then that would imply all things work out for His good but that questions our understanding of free will.At least for us acting under incomplete knowledge it would seem that we have free will but if destiny leads to a certain fate,do we?
symbols
#13 Posted : Thursday, November 07, 2013 4:55:53 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 3/19/2013
Posts: 2,552
Muriel wrote:
symbols wrote:
Muriel wrote:
Quote:
But since God created Lucifer, isn't He really responsible for his sin?
Not at all. God created Lucifer a perfect, sinless angel. Lucifer made a devil of himself. Freedom to choose is a cornerstone principle of God's government. God knew Lucifer would sin when He created him. If at that point God had refused to create him, He would have been repudiating that prime principle of free choice.

"Freedom to Choose" is God's Way
So, knowing full well what Lucifer would do, God still created him. The same facts apply to the creation of Adam and Eve. And, closer to home, these facts apply to you and me. God knows before we are born how we will live, but even so, He permits us to live and choose whether to endorse His government or Satan's. God is willing to be misunderstood and falsely accused and blamed for ages, while taking the time to allow every person to freely choose whom he will follow.

Only a Loving God Would Risk Granting Full Freedom for All
This glorious, crucial gift of freedom could come only from a just, open, loving God. It is an honor and joy to serve such a Lord and friend.


I do believe God is Love.Question is why?


Quote:

Why didn't God destroy the devil when he sinned, and thus end the sin problem?
Because sin was something completely new in God's universe, and its inhabitants did not understand it. Probably even Lucifer himself did not fully comprehend it at first. Lucifer was a brilliant, highly respected angelic leader. His approach was doubtless one of great concern for heaven and the angels. It possibly ran something like this: "Heaven is good, but it would be improved with more angel input. Too much unchallenged authority (as the Father and Son have) tends to blind leaders to real life. Angels should not be required to take orders. We should give orders. God knows my suggestions are correct, and He is feeling threatened. We must not permit our noble leaders who are out of touch to jeopardize the very existence of heaven. They will listen if we move in unison. We must not be weak we must act. Otherwise, we will all be ruined by a government that doesn't appreciate us."

One-Third of the Angels Joined Lucifer
Lucifer's arguments convinced many angels, and one-third joined him. If God had destroyed Lucifer immediately, some angelic beings who did not fully understand God's character may have begun to worship God through fear, saying, "Lucifer may have been correct. Be careful. If you differ with God, He may kill you." So nothing would have been settled. Instead, the problem would have been heightened.

God Accepts Only Loving, Voluntary Service
The only service acceptable to God is cheerful, voluntary service prompted by love. Obedience for any other reason is unacceptable.

God Is Giving Satan Time to Demonstrate His Principles
Satan claimed he had a better plan for the government of the universe. God is giving him time to demonstrate its principles. The Lord will abolish sin only after every soul in the universe is convinced that Satan's government is unfair, hateful, ruthless, lying, and destructive.

The Universe Is Watching This World
The Bible says, "We are made a spectacle [margin says "theatre"] unto the world, and to angels, and to men." 1 Corinthians 4:9. The entire universe is watching as we each play a part in the controversy between Christ and Satan. As the controversy ends, every soul will fully understand the principles of both kingdoms and will have chosen to follow either Christ or Satan. Those who have chosen to ally with sin and Satan will be destroyed with him, and God's people will be taken to the eternal safety of their heavenly home.


Aha,you speak!

Logically I don't even perceive I can understand God but then again God desires what is in the heart from my view.From my experience you can't hide what is in your heart.

On a religious perspective logic(especially when corrupted) can be a great hindrance to faith.Learning the language of emotion in an attempt to seek the heart of God is the only language I read and understand even in man.Whatever I read or listen to,the first thing I hear is emotion,mine's and the other(s).
Mukiri
#14 Posted : Thursday, November 07, 2013 5:36:49 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/11/2012
Posts: 5,222
I'd like to share my two cents but before I do, 2 things

1. 1 John 4:20

2. @Madam Admin... Why did you shut down our religious exchanges?

Proverbs 19:21
Kratos
#15 Posted : Thursday, November 07, 2013 7:24:07 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 1,694
Muriel wrote:
Quote:
But since God created Lucifer, isn't He really responsible for his sin?
Not at all. God created Lucifer a perfect, sinless angel. Lucifer made a devil of himself. Freedom to choose is a cornerstone principle of God's government. God knew Lucifer would sin when He created him. If at that point God had refused to create him, He would have been repudiating that prime principle of free choice.

"Freedom to Choose" is God's Way
So, knowing full well what Lucifer would do, God still created him. The same facts apply to the creation of Adam and Eve. And, closer to home, these facts apply to you and me. God knows before we are born how we will live, but even so, He permits us to live and choose whether to endorse His government or Satan's. God is willing to be misunderstood and falsely accused and blamed for ages, while taking the time to allow every person to freely choose whom he will follow.

Only a Loving God Would Risk Granting Full Freedom for All
This glorious, crucial gift of freedom could come only from a just, open, loving God. It is an honor and joy to serve such a Lord and friend.


I dont think creation or lack of (Lucifer in this instance) in the underlined statement is the best description of freedom of choice. No one or being chose to be created so there and then the freedom of choice has been taken away if that statement is to stand correct.

“People will believe a big lie sooner than a little one, and if you repeat it frequently enough, people will sooner or later believe it.” ― Walter C. Langer
harrydre
#16 Posted : Friday, November 08, 2013 12:37:37 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/10/2008
Posts: 9,131
Location: Kanjo
Muriel wrote:
Quote:
This glorious, crucial gift of freedom could come only from a just, open, loving God. It is an honor and joy to serve such a Lord and friend.


So if God is/was so loving, why allow his creations to sin thus suffer in hell? he should just have done away with sinuous activities.
i.am.back!!!!
Tokyo
#17 Posted : Friday, November 08, 2013 5:27:29 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 10/9/2006
Posts: 1,502
Following ....
work to prosper
seppuku
#18 Posted : Friday, November 08, 2013 8:25:22 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 5/11/2010
Posts: 918
In another thread, that sadly seems to have disappeared from Wazua, I asked "Who is God?". I think this is an important question to answer before participating in this discourse. I can, however, infer that you are referring to the God of the Bible.

Now, the God of the Bible has certain salient characteristics revealed in his Book. Among them are:

1) Omniscience - God is all knowing

2) Omnipotence - God is all powerful

3) Benevolence - God id good

Important philosophical questions arise from these qualities. I will mention a few.

Omniscience is, by definition, incompatible with freewill. If God knows what I will be doing this afternoon, surely I cannot possibly end up doing anything else for that would negate his omniscience. As such, I do not have choice and therefore cannot be held responsible for my actions.

Omnipotence has been shown to be a logically impossible attribute to possess. As Zeno once asked of the clergy: "Can God create a stone of any weight?", they said yes. "Can God lift a stone of any weight?", and they said yes. Then he asked, "Can God create a stone too heavy for him to lift?". The proof is in the answer to this last question.

Benevolence. If God is all good and all powerful, why is there any evil in the world? Surely, those two qualities are enough to prevent it from existing. And to think it annoys him when we sin.

What I am trying to say is that you cannot strengthen your faith by logic. You can only weaken it - or even discard it. To me, belief in God can be founded on anything else but good sense. And I think that is okay. There are far too many inconsistencies in the Bible to even begin to list here - although I could list a few if challenged to do so. There are also many passages that not only do they not contain any moral value, they appear to propagate the exact opposite.
Learn first to treat your time as you would your money, then treat your money as you do your time.
tycho
#19 Posted : Friday, November 08, 2013 10:44:48 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
seppuku wrote:
In another thread, that sadly seems to have disappeared from Wazua, I asked "Who is God?". I think this is an important question to answer before participating in this discourse. I can, however, infer that you are referring to the God of the Bible.

Now, the God of the Bible has certain salient characteristics revealed in his Book. Among them are:

1) Omniscience - God is all knowing

2) Omnipotence - God is all powerful

3) Benevolence - God id good

Important philosophical questions arise from these qualities. I will mention a few.

Omniscience is, by definition, incompatible with freewill. If God knows what I will be doing this afternoon, surely I cannot possibly end up doing anything else for that would negate his omniscience. As such, I do not have choice and therefore cannot be held responsible for my actions.

Omnipotence has been shown to be a logically impossible attribute to possess. As Zeno once asked of the clergy: "Can God create a stone of any weight?", they said yes. "Can God lift a stone of any weight?", and they said yes. Then he asked, "Can God create a stone too heavy for him to lift?". The proof is in the answer to this last question.

Benevolence. If God is all good and all powerful, why is there any evil in the world? Surely, those two qualities are enough to prevent it from existing. And to think it annoys him when we sin.

What I am trying to say is that you cannot strengthen your faith by logic. You can only weaken it - or even discard it. To me, belief in God can be founded on anything else but good sense. And I think that is okay. There are far too many inconsistencies in the Bible to even begin to list here - although I could list a few if challenged to do so. There are also many passages that not only do they not contain any moral value, they appear to propagate the exact opposite.


'God', is who the powerful say he/she is. Those who order, desire, and design, and build cities and nations. And power, rests on knowledge, and even more significantly, on one's ability to communicate consciously, with the subconscious of other beings, and to elicit desired responses.

In the subconscious realm, there are no time limits, and identity is shared among the ancestors, the dead, the living, the unborn, . . . For example, if one looks at the 'evolution' of ideas in the Bible, or even Quran or any religious text one sees ideas stretching back into times beyond, or past the writer, and more so, ideas that reflect a shared tradition.

Many, if not most of us, are from the Christian tradition and it's important for us to understand the symbols of 'faith' and 'world view'. From a 'Christian' perspective then I'd say that the arguments offered here are not true, and are not logical.

When 'God' is said to be 'omniscient', it's meant that He knows all options available to you, and knows that you'll choose any of them, according to your 'free will'. 'Free will' being one having at his disposal consciousness, reason, will power to act.

Zeno's argument on omnipotence can't be conclusive either. Firstly, the logical structure of the argument isn't the only one that exists. The Jains have a logic structure that 'Sometimes x and sometimes y'. Thus a disjunction doesn't have to hold at all times unless Zeno and the pastors were omniscient in the first place.

As for 'God' being benevolent, and their being 'so much evil', I'll merely point out that you are taking 'evil' in too cavalier a fashion. For example, evil is about human power and desire being thwarted, and if we trace the roots of this 'powerlessness' we find the individual and society subconsciously working against itself. One could argue that there's so much evil because of human free will.

'Logic' is a tool used to actualize human power, and is under constant transformation. And the challenge we are facing is that of understanding how logic has evolved and designing a new logic to meet our present challenges.

Muriel
#20 Posted : Friday, November 08, 2013 10:50:09 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 11/19/2009
Posts: 3,142
So many points! Let me try.

Kratos, an inanimate object cannot decide. What does not exist cannot decide. It has to live first then it can decide. Leaving the object inanimate for the singular reason that it will not decide is absolutely not the best description of giving freedom of choice. Could that be what you meant to say? Therefore, that statement is correct.

Harrydre, if I come there, where you are right now and give you a mighty sinful thwack in the face and you feel pain God is to blame for that? But where is hell? Is anyone there yet? I am yet to be convinced people are currently suffering in hell or will do so forever. Perhaps you can show me they do.

Seppuku, you can.

Omniscience - If God knows what I will be doing this afternoon, does he then control my hands now to do it? Is he controlling your hands now? There is a disconnect in your logic in this part where you attempt to link omniscience to action.

Omnipotence - Can God do all things -yes. Can He then for instance lust after a woman? This question will not rack our brains if we know He will not do anything that negates His character. Therefore what role has making a stone of any weight in his character? This is another defect in your attempt in logic to link omnipotence to character.

Benevolence - If i hog all food and supplies so that other people lack, then God is to blame for their lack? If I decide to go and take peoples' lives for whatever reason tickled my fancy somehow someway God is the one who did it? No?

Whats up with people not taking responsibility for the consequences of their actions, inactions and their respective spinoffs?

Tycho, hello? How are you today?


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