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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/9/2008 Posts: 5,389
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I always wonder why anyone would chose not to attend the mainstream churches e.g. Catholic, Anglican, Presbyterian, etc and instead chose to go to those pastor-centred 'ministries' e.g. Bishop Wanjiro ministries, Prophet Owuor ministries, Pastor Kiuna ministries, Helicopter etc etc run by celebrity pastors, where the church=pastor, and all the church assets basically belong to the pastor. Do these pastor-centered churches ever build schools, hospitals etc to help their congregation? Doesn't all the church money end up enriching the pastor, buying him a mansion in Runda and luxury cars, while the congregation lives in poverty? Some even walk around with bodyguards! The church should be an institution with perpetual succession until the second coming of Christ.
That said i don't think that the Kenyan church should be judged by the actions of a few rogue preachers who prey on their congregation. Just like we can't say that all the 40m kenyans are criminals just because a few of them have been convicted of various crimes and put in jail.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Mtu Biz wrote:tycho wrote:I don't think there's anything like a church that doesn't fleece and enslave her members.
Only that some use sophisticated methods and institutions.
Depends on your definition of 'Church'. The church in scripture is the fellowship those who have trusted in Jesus Christ and are born again, born not of natural descent or a husbands will, but born of God.(John 1:13 soma yote) The Church in Scripture had no requirements on its members as far as money of goods or even time. Everything was offered freely without compulsion. No Indulgencies to pay No seeds to plant No tithes to pay No firstfruits to pay No love offerings etc No arcs to move :) No holidays to pay for No Ministry to partner with No standing orders to fill out No pledge forms to commit to Everything that was ever given was given freely without compulsion. There is a story in scripture where Christians were sharing everything they had so that they would be more or less equal..and that the needy would not lack. One couple Ananias and Saphira after selling their land did not disclose the whole amount to the apostles and was asked, Acts 5:1-11 Quote:
"4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”
Meaning? He didnt even have to give it in the first place! The issue the apostles has with this is not that it was not the full amount but that they chose to lie about the amount. There would have been zero problems if they just kept everything to themselves. But because he wanted to conform to the prevailing mood of giving everything albeit deceptively and kept something back for themselves, they both died. This scripture has of course been mutilated to scare people who do not examine scripture for themselves into thinking that Almighty God would kill you for your money. Who on earth, in heaven or under the earth can ever give anything to God ? Even your 'righteousness' does not benefit him in any way.. or your wickedness diminish him. Job 35 Quote:
5 Look up at the heavens and see;
gaze at the clouds so high above you.
6 If you sin, how does that affect him?
If your sins are many, what does that do to him?
7 If you are righteous, what do you give to him,
or what does he receive from your hand?
8 Your wickedness only affects humans like yourself,
and your righteousness only other people.
Indeed @Mtu Biz, if one is to speak of 'Church', then he must find himself looking at the case of Ananias and Saphira. I was actually thinking of it when making my post. Peter, denied the Christ thrice, but lived to see the ressurection. How could Ananias, who hadn't merited the keys to heaven die because of being like Peter, during his denial? How different were these two from Judas Escariot? Who, or what killed Judas? I have good reason to believe that Judas and Ananias and Saphira all died due to extreme guilt. But Peter, being only human and quick with the knife totally mishandled the affair. Christ himself was in such a situation when he spoke about the widow who'd given the most, though she had apparently given the least. No one died because of Christ's illumination on the matter! At least no death was explained like Ananias'. And Peter knowingly, and willingly, endorsed killing by condemning Saphira. Peter, the rock, it's said, refused to be crucified like the Christ; just like when he refused to have his feet washed. How are we to account for the Church? Is it not by the visibility and being of Christ in each member of Christ's body? Yet some will ask if Christ can attend mass, or Church! What does this imply? I will tell you why Christ didn't write the Gospels himself; because the living word is about a free and open conversation intent on God's relationship and identity with Man. The written word is always in the past tense. But eternity is always about presence and becoming, living. Not Scripture. How can one say that the Gospel isn't about 'suffering'? How can we talk about sin, without talking about suffering? Who did Christ visit? Heal? The first Church tried to solve the problem of suffering via a communalism that relied on authority rather than identity and consciousness, in the end, death and suffering increased. And death and suffering belong to Satan.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/6/2008 Posts: 3,586
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Stick to the "traditional" churches, as someone pointed out, at least they have accountability and are structured, Methodist, Anglican Church, Catholic, Nazarene, PCEA, SDA e.t.c, the pastors have studied theology, they run accountable institutions like Universities, schools, hospitals, so you know your money reaches the needy, they dont harass you for tithe, however most people claim the services are "boring" so wanaenda kuchezewa drums and guiter's/seduction inside tents by some shiny, sly, colorful, charismatic pastors who start landing on sheep even gay ones now. Church service is only two hours, surely one can pay attention for two hours in a good, traditional church service, sing hymns and some local choruses without "vibrating" and speaking in tongues, being psyched into a fake frenzy, just sit listen and go home...hio steam ingine peleka disco. Ras Kienyeji Man
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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What I'm going to show you below is not my view.
This is the view of Jesus (may God bless him).
Matt 10.5: After Jesus had taught his twelve disciples, he sent them out, and commanded them saying: "Go NOT into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter into any city of the Samaritans. Go only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel."
NOTE: A Gentile is anybody who is not Jewish. And a Gentile includes all other mankind. So if you are not a Jew or if you are not Israeli then Jesus himself tells you that he was not sent for you.
Jacob=God changed his name to "Israel" (Soma hapa Matt 2:6)
Sons of Jacob = 12 tribes of Israel
12 tribes of Israel = House of Jacob
House of Jacob = House of Israel
Israelites = Jews
Gentiles = not Israelites
Jang'o = not Israelite
Kaleo = not Israelite
Kyuk = not Israelite
Lunje = not Israelite
Kamba = not Israelite
Masai = not Israelite
Gentile = non Iraelite
I am sorry but that is the reality.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/17/2008 Posts: 23,365 Location: Nairobi
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ZZE123 wrote:Mukiri wrote:McReggae wrote:Mukiri wrote:McReggae wrote:Mukiri wrote:@ Makelele, sasa weka ya mwenye bar  You thrive in matusi pastor bonoko!!! Sisemi kitu  Lolest! wrote:Njika na njika itiri maruru
If you do something unpleasant to someone then they do the same to you, you shouldn't bear a grudge  Sawa! Sasa weka pikcha ya mwenye bar Mwenye bar is a gen uine business man.  Not a con!!!! ..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
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Rank: Elder Joined: 4/30/2008 Posts: 6,029
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With the kind of thinking Kenyans have,I may also decide to reform and start my own church for a good life.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Much Know wrote:Stick to the "traditional" churches, as someone pointed out, at least they have accountability and are structured, Methodist, Anglican Church, Catholic, Nazarene, PCEA, SDA e.t.c, the pastors have studied theology, they run accountable institutions like Universities, schools, hospitals, so you know your money reaches the needy, they dont harass you for tithe, however most people claim the services are "boring" so wanaenda kuchezewa drums and guiter's inside tents by some shiny, sly, colorful, charismatic pastors start landing on sheep even gay ones now. Church service is only two hours, surely one can pay attention for two hours in a good, traditional church service, sing hymns and some local choruses without "vibrating" and speaking in tongues, being psyched into a fake frenzy, just sit listen and go home...hio steam ingine peleka disco. There's nothing like 'traditional' Church. Even the Catholic has it's Charismatic movement. We are not talking about manners and respectability here, we are talking about life, suffering, confusion, thirst, hunger. All these people you're criticizing came from these 'traditional churches'. We need to stop lying to ourselves, and change our ways and thinking. @Tokyo has spoken well on this regard, only that we no longer need religion. Did Christ have one? Does God have a religion? Religion comes due to lack of understanding, and poor memory but now these no longer exist. Man is free, doors are wide open. Yet you are asking where to go! I tell you that we are all shackled up. Chained on the neck, chained on the wrists, and ankles. And our minds totally twisted. We have eyes but can't see, ears that don't hear. We are the people of darkness. But here, have some light, see the devil and repent and climb to heaven, 'church' will help no one. Traditional or post modern.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/11/2012 Posts: 5,222
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McReggae wrote:ZZE123 wrote:Mukiri wrote:McReggae wrote:Mukiri wrote:McReggae wrote:Mukiri wrote:@ Makelele, sasa weka ya mwenye bar You thrive in matusi pastor bonoko!!! Sisemi kitu Lolest! wrote:Njika na njika itiri maruru
If you do something unpleasant to someone then they do the same to you, you shouldn't bear a grudge Sawa! Sasa weka pikcha ya mwenye bar Mwenye bar is a gen uine business man. Not a con!!!! So says the partakers of formalin and ARVs... Wolves are everywhere, is the message. So are good shepherds.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/17/2008 Posts: 23,365 Location: Nairobi
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Mukiri wrote:McReggae wrote:ZZE123 wrote:Mukiri wrote:McReggae wrote:Mukiri wrote:McReggae wrote:Mukiri wrote:@ Makelele, sasa weka ya mwenye bar You thrive in matusi pastor bonoko!!! Sisemi kitu Lolest! wrote:Njika na njika itiri maruru
If you do something unpleasant to someone then they do the same to you, you shouldn't bear a grudge Sawa! Sasa weka pikcha ya mwenye bar Mwenye bar is a gen uine business man. Not a con!!!! So says the partakers of formalin and ARVs... Wolves are everywhere, is the message. So are good shepherds. Even your chicken now got the ARVs~~~~ ..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
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Rank: Elder Joined: 4/30/2008 Posts: 6,029
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Mukiri wrote:McReggae wrote:ZZE123 wrote:Mukiri wrote:McReggae wrote:Mukiri wrote:McReggae wrote:Mukiri wrote:@ Makelele, sasa weka ya mwenye bar You thrive in matusi pastor bonoko!!! Sisemi kitu Lolest! wrote:Njika na njika itiri maruru
If you do something unpleasant to someone then they do the same to you, you shouldn't bear a grudge Sawa! Sasa weka pikcha ya mwenye bar Mwenye bar is a gen uine business man. Not a con!!!! So says the partakers of formalin and ARVs... Wolves are everywhere, is the message. So are good shepherds. Go away you chicken thief,masquerading as a pastor.
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