wazua Thu, Feb 6, 2025
Welcome Guest Search | Active Topics | Log In | Register

2 Pages<12
Solution to Kenyaโ€™s Poverty and Landlessness. Annual Land Value Tax.
a4architect.com
#21 Posted : Wednesday, April 18, 2012 8:27:58 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
@lo le s t
Good to see you are enjoying this Philosophical topic in real estate.
Read this letter by Henry George to the Pope over 100 years ago and see for yourself how philosophers used to discuss this LVT topic-bare-knuckle.

http://a4architect.wordp...-george-september-1891/

Btw the Catholic church owns alot of land in Kenya. I did a project in South Sudan and the client had to negotiate for extra land from the South Sudan Catholic Church.

How will LVT lead to landlessness on the part of the poor ? The poor dont own any land in Kenya to begin with.
If someone has land and cant raise taxes on their land, they are not poor-all they need to do is to sell to someone who can pay or develop it for profit.
In Taiwan, the LVT is only 0.2% for residentials. In some European countries, the old, sick e.t.c are exempt form LVT.

On the part of LVT causing inflation,most owners of vast lands dont engage in productivity e.g buildings for rent or farming.
Most owners of buildings dont own idle lands. This is coz they felt the pain of buying the land so they need to construct or farm on t to pay back.

Large land owners in Kenya dont farm. When they do, they farm cash crops for export hence no difference to the Kenyan if they increase cash crop price.

How will wealth be redistributed from the rich to the poor? The poor dont own land so they will gain from the rich who own land that will be taxed.

@ tycho

Quote:
The begining of our poverty came with taxation; now we want to add another tax to cancel out all these taxes?



The poverty is because the current Tax system taxes the majority workers e.g teachers, doctors, lawyers, business men e.t.c

The taxes are like punishment for working hard i.e the harder you work, the more tax you pay.

In essence, the LVT taxes Land Value.
No matter how hard you work, you will never ever increase the land value.

Land Value is increased by the community e.g high population, good roads, schools e.t.c These factors have nothing to do with the land owner.

LVT taxes this increased value and returns it to the community that contributed to its increase.

As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
quicksand
#22 Posted : Wednesday, April 18, 2012 12:08:36 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/5/2010
Posts: 2,061
Location: Nairobi
Very heady stuff this @a4architect....what do you think of a large direct investment in this sector by a foreign entity? Might that cool the sector a bit? For instance, get a mortgage/housing development conglomerate ... say from China ...(after all their real estate is beginning to over-heat, they might be eager to invest in nascent markets) to build 200,000 to 1,000,000 units in Nairobi ..get a tax holiday from the Govt to make the units affordable..

Housing is so essential, the govt shouldn't allow speculation to spiral like this (they did step in the case of petroleum, so there is a precedent there)
Lolest!
#23 Posted : Wednesday, April 18, 2012 12:48:35 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 12,069
Location: Kianjokoma
a4architect.com wrote:


How will LVT lead to landlessness on the part of the poor ? The poor dont own any land in Kenya to begin with.

The urban poor have no land. The rural poor do own land mostly by inheritance. What will happen if these rural poor can't pay the LVT? Wont it be auctioned and the richer folk will own it?

Also, think of a small scale farmer in the Nairobi metropolis areas of Kiambu, Machakos and Kajiado counties. Once the land is zoned for residential he will be expected to raise taxes that are equivalent to the owner of flats on a similar piece of land!


If someone has land and cant raise taxes on their land, they are not poor-all they need to do is to sell to someone who can pay or develop it for profit.

Hence some will be deprived of their right to own land! This thing would surely land in court with some funny NGOs coming up to 'fight' for the poor.

On the part of LVT causing inflation,most owners of vast lands dont engage in productivity e.g buildings for rent or farming.
Most owners of buildings dont own idle lands. This is coz they felt the pain of buying the land so they need to construct or farm on t to pay back.

Large land owners in Kenya dont farm. When they do, they farm cash crops for export hence no difference to the Kenyan if they increase cash crop price.

Remember the decision to have VAT on rent? Landlords simply passed the VAT to tenants. This will definitely happen if an LVT is instituted. If I have a farm, I will want to mark-up all costs to arrive at my selling price.

The big landowners in Kenya farm even for local production.



The poverty is because the current Tax system taxes the majority workers e.g teachers, doctors, lawyers, business men e.t.c

The taxes are like punishment for working hard i.e the harder you work, the more tax you pay.

In essence, the LVT taxes Land Value.
No matter how hard you work, you will never ever increase the land value.

Land Value is increased by the community e.g high population, good roads, schools e.t.c These factors have nothing to do with the land owner.

LVT taxes this increased value and returns it to the community that contributed to its increase.

If a private investor constructs a university in an area, the value of land will increase in that area. Everyone will be taxed for the increase, including the university entrepreneur!


Laughing out loudly smile Applause d'oh! Sad Drool Liar Shame on you Pray
a4architect.com
#24 Posted : Thursday, April 19, 2012 9:19:30 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
@L o l e s t


What will happen if these rural poor can't pay the LVT? Wont it be auctioned and the richer folk will own it?
Also, think of a small scale farmer in the Nairobi metropolis areas of Kiambu, Machakos and Kajiado counties. Once the land is zoned for residential he will be expected to raise taxes that are equivalent to the owner of flats on a
similar piece of land!

If they own land they are not poor. LVT discourages anyone who owns land from denying other people the right to gain from use of the land.
Only the old and sick should be exempt from the tax. Anyone else owning idle land should be taxed.

The small scale farmer in Kiambu will respect the zoning of the area. If its zoned for farming, then he farms. If its zoned for residential high rise, then he builds high rise or sells to a developer. Imagine someone owning a 3 bed bungalow in Nairobi CBD. He is denying u and me the right to utilise CBD will all the infrastructure to the maximum.


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Remember the decision to have VAT on rent? Landlords simply passed the VAT to tenants. This will definitely happen if an LVT is instituted. If I have a farm, I will want to mark-up all costs to arrive at my selling price.

The big landowners in Kenya farm even for local production.

In Kenya, it will be called Idle Land Tax. The tax will be on idle land. Idle land will be developed to a point whereby there will be very many developments hence fall in rental prices.

If the big landowners farm for local production then it means they are utilizing their land well so they should be able to afford to pay the LVT.




xxxxxxxxxxxx
If a private investor constructs a university in an area, the value of land will increase in that area. Everyone will be taxed for the increase, including the university entrepreneur!

The private developer will attract the public/high human traffic. Its the public/high human traffic who will make the private developer recoup his costs.
By taxing the developer and his neighbors who also gain form the public/high human traffic through higher rents, business opportunities,security e.t.c hence need to share this high gains with the public.
As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
a4architect.com
#25 Posted : Thursday, April 19, 2012 10:03:21 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
quicksand wrote:
Very heady stuff this @a4architect....what do you think of a large direct investment in this sector by a foreign entity? Might that cool the sector a bit? For instance, get a mortgage/housing development conglomerate ... say from China ...(after all their real estate is beginning to over-heat, they might be eager to invest in nascent markets) to build 200,000 to 1,000,000 units in Nairobi ..get a tax holiday from the Govt to make the units affordable..

Housing is so essential, the govt shouldn't allow speculation to spiral like this (they did step in the case of petroleum, so there is a precedent there)


@quicksand..
such a direct investment will still not reduce speculation on land hence increase in land prices hence increase in property prices.

Land is constant. The investment will bring in construction on the land. The land will still increase costs.

Solutions lie in making laws that hamper speculation of land.

The US made a similar mistake of confusing land with property. They tried to solve a land value problem with property[land +construction].
This resulted in the bubble.
As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
Lolest!
#26 Posted : Thursday, April 19, 2012 11:48:02 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 12,069
Location: Kianjokoma
@architect, I am not against LVT. Just giving the other side of the coin.

I found this document done by the IEA it has some additional points we may need to consider.

Quote:
Kenyan policy makers have for a long time grappled with the issue of land and property
taxation. This is mainly because of the simultaneous existence of the high inequalities in land
ownership side by side with land shortages and low agricultural productivity. Proponents of
land taxation lay claim to several advantages of the same, namely: (a) They are an ideal revenue
source for local government; (b) Real property is immovable and property taxes are therefore
less distortionary than levying taxes on sales or income; (c) Property taxes will often be
capitalized into property values hence coming close to a benefit tax; (d) Property taxes โ€“
especially if based on the potential monetary yield -will lead to more efficient use of valuable
natural resource, and (e) Land taxes will encourage more efficient land use.
However, others argue against land taxes on account of the following arguments. First, it leads
to increasing land concentration especially where risk is high and insurance markets are either
absent or imperfect. Second, the information requirements for a land tax-size, value, ownership
status, productive capacity and information costs of outputs and inputs-may be very costly.
Third, administrative and political cost may be too high. Fourth, for proper administration it is
important that a property tax law be put in place and that an administrative mechanism be put
in place that can keep registers up to date and assess, collect and enforce the tax. Fifth, it is a
highly visible tax therefore it is politically difficult to enforce. Sixth, the base of the property tax
may be inelastic.
Research needs to be undertaken to ensure that viability of implementing land based taxes.
Specifically there is need to ensure that the implementation of property taxes should take
account of a number of issues:
i. Assessment for the tax: should it be based on area occupied, property value or a system
of self assessment to ensure that the tax is neither distortionary nor administratively too
costly to impose.
ii. Setting of tax rates: this has to do with whether the tax rates should be set locally or by
central government.
iii. Tax administration: it is important that the administration is strong enough to ensure
that it is not an impediment on property tax and that the collection costs are not too high.

http://www.ieakenya.or.k...ormance%20in%20Kenya.pdf
Laughing out loudly smile Applause d'oh! Sad Drool Liar Shame on you Pray
a4architect.com
#27 Posted : Thursday, April 19, 2012 12:17:50 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
@ l o l e s t..
i appreciate a good objective debate like the one we are having on LVT with you. It helps us all become wiser in the long run.

The Institue of Economic Affairs critic above is not detailed enough to warant a proper discussion.
E.g
Second, the information requirements for a land tax-size, value, ownership
status, productive capacity and information costs of outputs and inputs-may be very costly.

For this, already Ministry of Local Govt has the zonings in place ll over Kenya.

As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
a4architect.com
#28 Posted : Thursday, April 19, 2012 12:23:32 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
[quote=Lolest!]@architect, I am not against LVT. Just giving the other side of the coin.

I found this document done by the IEA it has some additional points we may need to consider.

Quote:
Kenyan policy makers have for a long time grappled with the issue of land and property
taxation. This is mainly because of the simultaneous existence of the high inequalities in land
ownership side by side with land shortages and low agricultural productivity. Proponents of
land taxation lay claim to several advantages of the same, namely: (a) They are an ideal revenue
source for local government; (b) Real property is immovable and property taxes are therefore
less distortionary than levying taxes on sales or income; (c) Property taxes will often be
capitalized into property values hence coming close to a benefit tax; (d) Property taxes โ€“
especially if based on the potential monetary yield -will lead to more efficient use of valuable
natural resource, and (e) Land taxes will encourage more efficient land use.
However, others argue against land taxes on account of the following arguments. First, it leads
to increasing land concentration especially where risk is high and insurance markets are either
absent or imperfect.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Land concentration of buildings helps to utilise infrastructure efficiently, hence reducing cost of infrastructure to the public.
Second, the information requirements for a land tax-size, value, ownership
status, productive capacity and information costs of outputs and inputs-may be very costly.
Already Local Govt has zoning controls in all areas of kenya.
Third, administrative and political cost may be too high.
Already Govt has employed Planners in Local Authority so no added cost.
Fourth, for proper administration it is
important that a property tax law be put in place and that an administrative mechanism be put
in place that can keep registers up to date and assess, collect and enforce the tax.
Property tax and Land Value tax are independent of each other.

Fifth, it is a
highly visible tax therefore it is politically difficult to enforce.

Visible tax is impossible to evade hence better tax colection.

Sixth, the base of the property tax
may be inelastic.
Property tax has nothing to do with Land Value tax.
Research needs to be undertaken to ensure that viability of implementing land based taxes.
Specifically there is need to ensure that the implementation of property taxes should take
account of a number of issues:
i. Assessment for the tax: should it be based on area occupied, property value or a system
of self assessment to ensure that the tax is neither distortionary nor administratively too
costly to impose.
ii. Setting of tax rates: this has to do with whether the tax rates should be set locally or by
central government.
iii. Tax administration: it is important that the administration is strong enough to ensure
that it is not an impediment on property tax and that the collection costs are not too high.

http://www.ieakenya.or.k...rmance%20in%20Kenya.pdf[/quote]
As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
quicksand
#29 Posted : Thursday, April 19, 2012 2:03:15 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/5/2010
Posts: 2,061
Location: Nairobi
@a4architect.com ..You say it won't affect speculation? I have doubts. Land may be finite, but demand can be controlled by a few strategic moves ...chopping the super-profits in real estate development is one way.
When speculators see that prices for land units are not moving as fast as they hoped, they will let go of the units. People are in a rush,..irrational exuberance ..also, if a land speculator for sure knows the value will appreciate 3 to 5% annually for example (just like returns for any other investments), they might invest that money elsewhere.
Creating a temporary glut of affordable housing might just achieve that.
Unfortunately, the policy cats in govt are the same ones reaping super normal profits, so it is unlikely to happen.
a4architect.com
#30 Posted : Thursday, April 19, 2012 3:32:23 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
@quicksand..
the best method of controlling speculation on land is through idle land tax.
I make real estate feasibility studies on a daily basis.
Property developers dont make super-profits.
Land owners and banks do. On average, property developers make between 20 to 30% return.

Banks make higher. Land owners make even higher.

USA tried this and burnt their fingers. The housing glut is best created sustainably through idle land tax as opposed to through large real estate investment since the investor/bank creating the glut will loose.

On the policy cats, thats true.
As long as Kenyans vote in leaders who dont stand for anything,mostly voted in through tribal emotional reasons, its unlikely that the next Govt will make any such policies.
As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
a4architect.com
#31 Posted : Thursday, April 19, 2012 5:51:38 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
@alma @l o l e s t and other land valuers in the house:

any update on the agenda by this site?

http://www.ldgi.co.ke/

As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
Siringi
#32 Posted : Sunday, October 06, 2013 7:39:57 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/8/2013
Posts: 2,517
Interesting debate and perspectives

masukuma wrote:
An Australian is visiting Kenya, and feeling thirsty, he stops at a house along the road. "Can you give me a drink of water?" asks the Australian.
"Of course," says the Kenyan, and invites the Australian to come in.
"What do you do?" asks the Australian."I raise a few chickens," says the Kenyan.
"Really?" says the Australian. "I'm also a farmer. How much land do you have?"
"Well", says the Kenyan, "out front it's fifty feet, as you can see, and in the back we have close to a hundred feet of property. And what about your place?"
"Well", says the Australian, "on my ranch, I have breakfast and get into the car, and I drive and drive...and I don't reach the end of the ranch until dinnertime."
"Really," replies the Kenyan. "I used to have a car like that."

. . .

Gordon Gekko wrote:
@masukuma, you have a point that will need fixing at some point, the sooner the better and less painful.

The most fertile areas in Kenya are the ones with immense land pressure, leading to fragmentation that cease making economic sense.

Some dictator should consolidate the land in these area, forcibly move the residents to mega cities and release the land for commercial farming. It works in the so called developed countries, why not Kenya?

It is easy to say as I will never be President.

"๐Ÿ˜–๐Ÿ˜กKQ makes money for everyone except the shareholder ๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ˜ " overheard in Wazua
Siringi
#33 Posted : Sunday, October 06, 2013 7:51:22 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/8/2013
Posts: 2,517
The late James Kiprop Bett [God bless his soul] had a very radical proposal
there is need for serious reexamination of our attitude and obsession with kamugunda and fragmentation

Watch the man`s insights. Hapa we lost mtu wa nguvu a real visionary



"๐Ÿ˜–๐Ÿ˜กKQ makes money for everyone except the shareholder ๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ˜ " overheard in Wazua
a4architect.com
#34 Posted : Monday, October 07, 2013 8:52:07 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
Kiprop Bett was willing to engage in solutions to land use. Current constitution manadates the land commission to carry out such research and implement, only that the commission has decided to become impotent and blame Ngilu for their lack of enthusiasm. If they think they are not adequately supported, they can go to supreme court for assistance but they have chosen to hibernate instead.
As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
Siringi
#35 Posted : Monday, October 14, 2013 11:46:21 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/8/2013
Posts: 2,517
Seen on twirra...

#HAKI YETU


"๐Ÿ˜–๐Ÿ˜กKQ makes money for everyone except the shareholder ๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ˜ " overheard in Wazua
a4architect.com
#36 Posted : Monday, October 14, 2013 12:06:29 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
these crazy land appreciation rates will completely destroy the fiscal economy soon.
As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
kaifastus
#37 Posted : Tuesday, October 15, 2013 7:48:53 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 8/17/2011
Posts: 207
Location: humu humu
Nobel price in economics shared between proponents and opponents of an idea!..Eugine fama,and Robert shiller. I think there's so much unknown in economics as a science and that's why poverty has never been completely eradicated,models many times don't work, financial crises are unpredictable,asset bubbles happen...all this bcoz the HOUSEHOLD IS MANY TIMES IRRATIONAL (yea forget econ 102)..binadamu ni wazimu!
symbols
#38 Posted : Tuesday, October 15, 2013 8:21:54 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/19/2013
Posts: 2,552
Economics is a social science disconnected from society thus the problem.The household is rational it's that economists don't appreciate behavioral economics/finance yet that's where the dis/incentives for resource allocation lie.
murchr
#39 Posted : Tuesday, October 15, 2013 11:29:50 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
Siringi wrote:
Seen on twirra...

#HAKI YETU




Now if you cant afford land in Nairobi who has told you not to move elsewhere. Kwani people have to live in Nairobi?

In my view, Nairobi is "Newyork" if you cant live by its rules move.
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
a4architect.com
#40 Posted : Wednesday, October 16, 2013 12:14:14 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
kaifastus wrote:
Nobel price in economics shared between proponents and opponents of an idea!..Eugine fama,and Robert shiller. I think there's so much unknown in economics as a science and that's why poverty has never been completely eradicated,models many times don't work, financial crises are unpredictable,asset bubbles happen...all this bcoz the HOUSEHOLD IS MANY TIMES IRRATIONAL (yea forget econ 102)..binadamu ni wazimu!


@kaifastus..very true. Economic solutions for kenya and africa need economists willing to think outside the box, not like njuguna ndungu who tended to use text book theories to run central bank. Lets hope the new cbk governor will be willing to risk with new ideas.
As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
Users browsing this topic
Guest (4)
2 Pages<12
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Copyright © 2025 Wazua.co.ke. All Rights Reserved.