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African traditional religion(s) and philosophy in a new world
symbols
#21 Posted : Sunday, August 11, 2013 8:12:15 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/19/2013
Posts: 2,552
masukuma wrote:
is there a point to this discussion?


It defines everything in society.From what we find beautiful,our politics,our business,religion(and its interpretation),education,environment,entertainment.........Culture!
Caramba
#22 Posted : Sunday, August 11, 2013 10:25:02 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 10/27/2010
Posts: 266
Location: Nairobi
AlphDoti wrote:
symbols wrote:
tycho wrote:
The Western brand of thinking can't contain the challenges of the present world, but the traditional African 'systems' have all the necessary ingredients for a peaceful and prosperous world, and universal brotherhood and freedom.

And sweeter still is that even the challenges outlined in the 'Laussane spirit' are so easy to surmount!

Freedom at last.

What are these challenges? What is the western brand of thinking/culture and finally what the traditional african 'systems'?

Below are some example problems the Western culture has failed to solve, include:
(1). Problem of poverty
(2). Problem alcoholism and drug abuse
(3). Problem of excess women
(4). Problem of prostitution
(5). Problem of breakdown family unit
(6). etc

NOTE: To expound on "problem" of poverty
You know we have enough in the universe to feed whole humanity. Why people die of obesity in America? While some die of poverty in Somalia?
Because of unequal distribution of wealth.
Also removal of interest will help (because too much interest, means less in the hands of people)



Is this why women are considered sub-human in many Islamic countries?
Saudia-Women not allowed to drive
Jordan-Brothers drowning sisters in swimming pools
Taliban-The less said, the better.
InnovateGuy
#23 Posted : Sunday, August 11, 2013 10:33:49 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/15/2012
Posts: 1,110
tycho wrote:
The Western brand of thinking can't contain the challenges of the present world, but the traditional African 'systems' have all the necessary ingredients for a peaceful and prosperous world, and universal brotherhood and freedom.

And sweeter still is that even the challenges outlined in the 'Laussane spirit' are so easy to surmount!

Freedom at last.


This is a 'huge' generalisation. Deal with the specifics first.

What is the 'western brand of thinking'? The term 'religion' implies that a set of 'sects' or people agree on a set of beliefs. No one can claim that the 'western world' has a single 'religion' without deliberately leaving out pieces of evidence which contradict this notion.

"African traditional systems' is a misnomer. Yes, Africa is a continent. But with regards to beliefs, there is no universal set of 'beliefs' or 'systems' which could be classified as "African."

Think of the people in Egypt and the Bantu's in DR Congo. While the "Egyptians" largely believed in heavenly bodies as the source of spiritual power, the people in DR Congo believed that their 'gods' lived in the forest.

Nonetheless, each society, or set of communities, had their own 'way of life' which informed their 'behavior.' Colonization broke many of those 'ways of life.' Today, it's no longer about the community; it's about every individual for himself. But don't sit in silence 'praying' for the return of the "African ways of life." That's not coming back.

Many years ago, Chinua Achebe captured what you're mourning about in his famous novel " Things Fall Apart." Indeed, everything fell apart, and I don't see any come back within this generation.
Live Full Die Empty - Les Brown.
Tokyo
#24 Posted : Monday, August 12, 2013 3:22:12 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 10/9/2006
Posts: 1,502
I'm Laughlin' it.
work to prosper
i_am_saved
#25 Posted : Monday, August 12, 2013 8:24:01 AM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 6/12/2013
Posts: 69
InnovateGuy wrote:
tycho wrote:
The Western brand of thinking can't contain the challenges of the present world, but the traditional African 'systems' have all the necessary ingredients for a peaceful and prosperous world, and universal brotherhood and freedom.

And sweeter still is that even the challenges outlined in the 'Laussane spirit' are so easy to surmount!

Freedom at last.


This is a 'huge' generalisation. Deal with the specifics first.

What is the 'western brand of thinking'? The term 'religion' implies that a set of 'sects' or people agree on a set of beliefs. No one can claim that the 'western world' has a single 'religion' without deliberately leaving out pieces of evidence which contradict this notion.

"African traditional systems' is a misnomer. Yes, Africa is a continent. But with regards to beliefs, there is no universal set of 'beliefs' or 'systems' which could be classified as "African."

Think of the people in Egypt and the Bantu's in DR Congo. While the "Egyptians" largely believed in heavenly bodies as the source of spiritual power, the people in DR Congo believed that their 'gods' lived in the forest.

Nonetheless, each society, or set of communities, had their own 'way of life' which informed their 'behavior.' Colonization broke many of those 'ways of life.' Today, it's no longer about the community; it's about every individual for himself. But don't sit in silence 'praying' for the return of the "African ways of life." That's not coming back.

Many years ago, Chinua Achebe captured what you're mourning about in his famous novel " Things Fall Apart." Indeed, everything fell apart, and I don't see any come back within this generation.



Absolutely.

Tycho should define these terms

'western brand of thinking',
'challenges of the present world'
'challenges'
'present world'
'traditional African systems'
'traditional'
'systems'
'ingredients'
'peaceful and prosperous world'
'universal brotherhood and freedom'

Do they have a definition as used in his assertions?

Some clarity so that readers get on the same page, with same meanings.

Light, enlightenment, illumination is needed here, lol.
Just for Mukiri.
tycho
#26 Posted : Monday, August 12, 2013 1:07:57 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
i_am_saved wrote:
InnovateGuy wrote:
tycho wrote:
The Western brand of thinking can't contain the challenges of the present world, but the traditional African 'systems' have all the necessary ingredients for a peaceful and prosperous world, and universal brotherhood and freedom.

And sweeter still is that even the challenges outlined in the 'Laussane spirit' are so easy to surmount!

Freedom at last.


This is a 'huge' generalisation. Deal with the specifics first.

What is the 'western brand of thinking'? The term 'religion' implies that a set of 'sects' or people agree on a set of beliefs. No one can claim that the 'western world' has a single 'religion' without deliberately leaving out pieces of evidence which contradict this notion.

"African traditional systems' is a misnomer. Yes, Africa is a continent. But with regards to beliefs, there is no universal set of 'beliefs' or 'systems' which could be classified as "African."

Think of the people in Egypt and the Bantu's in DR Congo. While the "Egyptians" largely believed in heavenly bodies as the source of spiritual power, the people in DR Congo believed that their 'gods' lived in the forest.

Nonetheless, each society, or set of communities, had their own 'way of life' which informed their 'behavior.' Colonization broke many of those 'ways of life.' Today, it's no longer about the community; it's about every individual for himself. But don't sit in silence 'praying' for the return of the "African ways of life." That's not coming back.

Many years ago, Chinua Achebe captured what you're mourning about in his famous novel " Things Fall Apart." Indeed, everything fell apart, and I don't see any come back within this generation.



Absolutely.

Tycho should define these terms

'western brand of thinking',
'challenges of the present world'
'challenges'
'present world'
'traditional African systems'
'traditional'
'systems'
'ingredients'
'peaceful and prosperous world'
'universal brotherhood and freedom'

Do they have a definition as used in his assertions?

Some clarity so that readers get on the same page, with same meanings.

Light, enlightenment, illumination is needed here, lol.


By 'Western brand of thinking' I mean the world view, symbols and interactions, and relationships that were influenced by the Greek Philosophers and mystics, and whose evolution has been dominant in the geographical region known as 'Europe'.

'African traditional systems' are the Philosophy and mysticism of the African continent before the preponderance of 'Western' Philosophy.

'Present world' is the locus of the philosophical forces and their effects that are shared across the continents of planet earth.

'Challenges', are the threats and concerns on human life.

'Ingredients' are ideas, and customs, philosophies.
tycho
#27 Posted : Monday, August 12, 2013 1:18:38 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
symbols wrote:
tycho wrote:
The Western brand of thinking can't contain the challenges of the present world, but the traditional African 'systems' have all the necessary ingredients for a peaceful and prosperous world, and universal brotherhood and freedom.

And sweeter still is that even the challenges outlined in the 'Laussane spirit' are so easy to surmount!

Freedom at last.


What are these challenges? What is the western brand of thinking/culture and finally what the traditional african 'systems'?



The challenges are the concerns raised by humanity at this point in time like environmental degradation, war, the need for even distribution of wealth, exercise of basic freedoms, and changes in human spirituality.
tycho
#28 Posted : Monday, August 12, 2013 1:42:16 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
symbols wrote:
I'm very curious to see how you will approach Egyptian religions and traditions.


Going by accounts of Pythagoras learning from the Egyptians, or by Mosaic account, I approach the Egyptians as an enlightened people. And indeed, I find their essential Philosophy a good model for our discussion.

For example their flexible yet authentic approach to the Supreme being, the lesser divinities, magic, and indeed their whole worldview would be of great help in a multicultural and greatly interconnected world.

Besides, the traditional African has a Philosophy based on these ideas even at the present moment when contrasting ideas are regnant. The result has been a kind of stupefaction as the two worldviews contrast, and clash.
i_am_saved
#29 Posted : Monday, August 12, 2013 1:45:29 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 6/12/2013
Posts: 69
You have shed light?

'western brand of thinking'
Northern vs Southern Europeans.
This distinction has been attributed to religion; Northerners more 'industrious' than the southerners.

No northern country has so far needed bailout unlike several southern countries; the evidence cited. (There is no way to disprove this account.)

Therefore which? northern vs southern worldview, symbols and interactions and relationships.

'African traditional systems'
There are how many individual distinct African traditional systems?
Each with aspects, philosophy, mysticism on its origins and consequent societal systems built upon that myth that also affected its relations +vely or -vely with the next system. So which one are you referring to.

'Present world'
North Horr despite being on the same 'present world' as Manhattan, are also in 'different worlds'. So what is this 'present world' you speak of?

'challenges'
the challenges in mutindwa that threaten and concern the individuals there are not the challenges in Hollywood.

'ingredients'
philosophies are as varied as the thoughts they represent. so which one?

So you see, please give an explicit definition of what you have in mind.

You need to use similar definitions in all areas so as to talk about oranges with oranges.
Just for Mukiri.
Tokyo
#30 Posted : Monday, August 12, 2013 2:05:29 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 10/9/2006
Posts: 1,502
Bored- right time for us atheists to start counting our loses while preparing for that thy eternal fire. Question is how hot will it be? Anybody?
work to prosper
tycho
#31 Posted : Monday, August 12, 2013 2:21:27 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
InnovateGuy wrote:
tycho wrote:
The Western brand of thinking can't contain the challenges of the present world, but the traditional African 'systems' have all the necessary ingredients for a peaceful and prosperous world, and universal brotherhood and freedom.

And sweeter still is that even the challenges outlined in the 'Laussane spirit' are so easy to surmount!

Freedom at last.


This is a 'huge' generalisation. Deal with the specifics first.

What is the 'western brand of thinking'? The term 'religion' implies that a set of 'sects' or people agree on a set of beliefs. No one can claim that the 'western world' has a single 'religion' without deliberately leaving out pieces of evidence which contradict this notion.

"African traditional systems' is a misnomer. Yes, Africa is a continent. But with regards to beliefs, there is no universal set of 'beliefs' or 'systems' which could be classified as "African."

Think of the people in Egypt and the Bantu's in DR Congo. While the "Egyptians" largely believed in heavenly bodies as the source of spiritual power, the people in DR Congo believed that their 'gods' lived in the forest.

Nonetheless, each society, or set of communities, had their own 'way of life' which informed their 'behavior.' Colonization broke many of those 'ways of life.' Today, it's no longer about the community; it's about every individual for himself. But don't sit in silence 'praying' for the return of the "African ways of life." That's not coming back.

Many years ago, Chinua Achebe captured what you're mourning about in his famous novel " Things Fall Apart." Indeed, everything fell apart, and I don't see any come back within this generation.


While it may be true that there was variety in cultural expression within the African continent, it shouldn't be assumed that there were no bodies politic that were in interaction. Such interactions constited of a shared value system that can be enunciated. The same with the 'West'.

Yes Colonialism eclipsed African traditions. But do these enlightenment forces meet our needs as Africans and human global needs?

The Missionaries came with certain ideas about God, are these ideas still valid?

Let's take the Church as an example. How does our understanding of God change as gays and homosexuals are embraced? Or as information technology decentralizes authority and increases human capacities?

It would certainly be irresponsible for us not to consider these issues.

Like now, the world is moving towards communalism, and who are best placed to effect this?

AlphDoti
#32 Posted : Monday, August 12, 2013 2:24:01 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
Tokyo wrote:
Bored- right time for us atheists to start counting our loses while preparing for that thy eternal fire. Question is how hot will it be? Anybody?

This is for you @Tokyo.

After death, Allah says in the Quran surah Nisaa 4:52:
"Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire:
as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty:
for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
"

So if Allah wants to burn Hitler 999,999 times He can do it. If Allah wants to burn him 10,000 times He can do it in Ahera.

People cannot do it in this world
Because in this world, if police catches, you can compensate a maximum one death. He killed 1,000,000 so how will you punish for the remaining 999,999 lives?

Without life after death
only believing in God is not sufficient.
Only believing in Allah will not justify why robbing is bad, why rapping is bad etc.

IMPORTANT: Since you are intelligent man
I can tell you that scientists have recently proved that heat receptors are only found on the skin. Somebody burnt 100% on the skin does not feel anymore pain due to heat.
How could a book 1,400 years old know about this concept?
tycho
#33 Posted : Monday, August 12, 2013 2:32:51 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
i_am_saved wrote:
You have shed light?

'western brand of thinking'
Northern vs Southern Europeans.
This distinction has been attributed to religion; Northerners more 'industrious' than the southerners.

No northern country has so far needed bailout unlike several southern countries; the evidence cited. (There is no way to disprove this account.)

Therefore which? northern vs southern worldview, symbols and interactions and relationships.

'African traditional systems'
There are how many individual distinct African traditional systems?
Each with aspects, philosophy, mysticism on its origins and consequent societal systems built upon that myth that also affected its relations +vely or -vely with the next system. So which one are you referring to.

'Present world'
North Horr despite being on the same 'present world' as Manhattan, are also in 'different worlds'. So what is this 'present world' you speak of?

'challenges'
the challenges in mutindwa that threaten and concern the individuals there are not the challenges in Hollywood.

'ingredients'
philosophies are as varied as the thoughts they represent. so which one?

So you see, please give an explicit definition of what you have in mind.

You need to use similar definitions in all areas so as to talk about oranges with oranges.


Northerners and Southerners certainly share values even despite their differences. Same for Africans. It's these shared values that we are talking about.

If you go to Mutindwa you'll find someone on the internet, events there concern everyone across the globe.
tycho
#34 Posted : Monday, August 12, 2013 2:39:35 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Tokyo wrote:
Bored- right time for us atheists to start counting our loses while preparing for that thy eternal fire. Question is how hot will it be? Anybody?


It's not lost on me that you are stating a western idea. And still, why should atheism be a club? Atheists can't conduct a census, doing so would result in religion.

Metaphors of eternal fire and the like, need not be issues of concern. The issue of concern is being.
tycho
#35 Posted : Monday, August 12, 2013 2:50:52 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
AlphDoti wrote:
guru267 wrote:
Islam is generally in line with the ATR!!

You have a point @Guru. Just slight addition. Islam is in line with ATR, but bit advanced in the sense that Islam has come to regulate things, which were practiced in the wrong way in ATR.
It regulated it by bringing in limits and responsibility.

Sadly in other ways of life (read religions) like Christianity, it is a license to promiscuity. Because, mostly they go by Western culture or traditions.

Many miss to understand that for Muslims, standards of morality are not set by Western culture or thinking. But it is set by divine
revelation
.

Also, very importantly
Islam has not come up with anything new.
All the practices in Islam, were noticeable among all ancient communities. Which include African traditions, the Hindu, There was, Babylons, Persian etc


The act of 'regulating', or changing a peoples consciousness is inevitable as cultures interact, and knowledge increased. This process is still on, and we are now talking about our approach to this kind of interaction and its basis.
tycho
#36 Posted : Monday, August 12, 2013 2:59:37 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
guru267 wrote:
tycho wrote:
The Western brand of thinking can't contain the challenges of the present world, but the traditional African 'systems' have all the necessary ingredients for a peaceful and prosperous world, and universal brotherhood and freedom.

And sweeter still is that even the challenges outlined in the 'Laussane spirit' are so easy to surmount!

Freedom at last.


Christianity introduced a merciful, forgiving God who recognised our weakness for sin!

The result: Adopting sin as a way of life with the very small consequence of "saying sorry"

Christians are now lovers of sin as it intrigues them!
I wonder if it Is it possible to find a popular tv show or movie today missing murder, deceit, adultery, fornication, lust, greed, and satanism??

btw Majority of the people acting these things are at church come Sunday!

I've even heard gays and lesbians asking me to cast the first stone if I am without sin!


Such is an interpretation of God. And it's a resultant.

How else can we understand ourselves, and God?
symbols
#37 Posted : Monday, August 12, 2013 3:22:28 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/19/2013
Posts: 2,552
tycho wrote:
Tokyo wrote:
Bored- right time for us atheists to start counting our loses while preparing for that thy eternal fire. Question is how hot will it be? Anybody?


It's not lost on me that you are stating a western idea. And still, why should atheism be a club? Atheists can't conduct a census, doing so would result in religion.

Metaphors of eternal fire and the like, need not be issues of concern. The issue of concern is being.

Laughing out loudly
Ngong
#38 Posted : Monday, August 12, 2013 4:28:05 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/17/2012
Posts: 1,461
Location: Ngong Forest
tycho wrote:
The Western brand of thinking can't contain the challenges of the present world, but the traditional African 'systems' have all the necessary ingredients for a peaceful and prosperous world, and universal brotherhood and freedom.

And sweeter still is that even the challenges outlined in the 'Laussane spirit' are so easy to surmount!

Freedom at last.


Jambo Bw. Tycho!
You didn't mention religion and l don't think your intention was to make it the central theme in your thread.
Having said that l got somehow interested to know what this 'spirit' is and in so doing got total derailed!

quote:
Our members from Africa and Asia reminded us that in their context, the powers of darkness are very real and spiritual warfare is where they live all the time. Their families are still only one or two generations removed from a spiritist, animist or occult heritage.

I know it takes some time to understand you,but this one doesn't wash!
i_am_saved
#39 Posted : Monday, August 12, 2013 4:34:15 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 6/12/2013
Posts: 69
tycho wrote:
i_am_saved wrote:
You have shed light?

'western brand of thinking'
Northern vs Southern Europeans.
This distinction has been attributed to religion; Northerners more 'industrious' than the southerners.

No northern country has so far needed bailout unlike several southern countries; the evidence cited. (There is no way to disprove this account.)

Therefore which? northern vs southern worldview, symbols and interactions and relationships.

'African traditional systems'
There are how many individual distinct African traditional systems?
Each with aspects, philosophy, mysticism on its origins and consequent societal systems built upon that myth that also affected its relations +vely or -vely with the next system. So which one are you referring to.

'Present world'
North Horr despite being on the same 'present world' as Manhattan, are also in 'different worlds'. So what is this 'present world' you speak of?

'challenges'
the challenges in mutindwa that threaten and concern the individuals there are not the challenges in Hollywood.

'ingredients'
philosophies are as varied as the thoughts they represent. so which one?

So you see, please give an explicit definition of what you have in mind.

You need to use similar definitions in all areas so as to talk about oranges with oranges.


Northerners and Southerners certainly share values even despite their differences. Same for Africans. It's these shared values that we are talking about.

If you go to Mutindwa you'll find someone on the internet, events there concern everyone across the globe.


Shared values are not independent of differences.

Shared values do not, cannot override differences.

Talking of shared values as if they are universal and cannot be influenced by the differences is simplistic. The different worldviews even affect how these 'shared values' are viewed if they are even really 'shared'.

If you are talking about the shared values in this thread to the exclusion of differences, then you are being very simplistic, basic, elementary.

This debate is therefore simplistic, basic, elementary and not realistic.

In wazua parlance, this thread would be ABK!!!!



Just for Mukiri.
Ngong
#40 Posted : Monday, August 12, 2013 4:37:30 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/17/2012
Posts: 1,461
Location: Ngong Forest
Quote from the same 'spirit'.
Influx of Non-Christian Worldview: The massive migrations of peoples from the Third World to the West has brought a torrent of non-Christian worldviews and practices into our midst. Increasing mobility has also exposed developing countries to new fringe groups, cults and freemasonry.
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