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Can I take a loan to invest in the stock market?
sparkly
#21 Posted : Saturday, August 10, 2013 7:18:03 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/23/2009
Posts: 8,083
Location: Enk are Nyirobi
Yes you take a loan to buy shares. Its called leverage!

Question is, should you?

This depends on your personal circumstances, status of the market, risk tolerance and terms of the loan.

If:
1. You have the means to service the loan, without relying on cash flow from the stock.
2. You are a very experienced and knowledgeable stock picker.
3. The market in general or a stock you are interested in are very cheap (or about to "break out").
4. You can tolerate stock ups and downs without stressing (Note that leverage multiplies you potential returns as well as risks).
4. You can get a very cheap or free loan that will allow you to make a profit from small stock movements.

THEN you can take a loan to buy shares. OTHERWISE you should not.
Life is short. Live passionately.
mBiaLoss
#22 Posted : Saturday, August 10, 2013 9:01:31 AM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 6/23/2010
Posts: 52
Location: Majuu
@Sparkly,

1. I have other means of servicing the loan independent of the stock

2. Am not experienced or knowledgeable about the stocks, but I have been luck previously (Bought Sasini at 6.30 and sold at 15 but not a lot of shares)

3. Some stocks am seeing are really cheap, that the company can either go bankrupt of up. I don't see how further down they go except bankruptcy!

4. I am an expert in tolerating market fluctuations. Bought Safaricom at 4 solid at 7 and bought at 3 and just sold at 7. But dew to low vol investment I don't think am getting much. Bought Access K at 35 and at 20 and now is at what 9 bucks....that is one stupid stock. But I have learned from it!

5. I can get a cheap loan (at 7-10% interest). If take loan for 1-2yrs. And then pay out of pocket. Will the stock hold my value and return my interest and a profit? Can the stock return 20-30% in 2yrs for me to justify the loan? That is my question.


6. Am aware also that I can loose everything and that is a risk associated with business!
As an investor I behave like a tick, patiently waiting on grass and larch onto the first cow that shows up. As an investor I dont behave like a tick...I jump off the the cow as soon as am fully engorged before it dies...
mkonomtupu
#23 Posted : Saturday, August 10, 2013 12:07:02 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 2/10/2010
Posts: 1,001
Location: River Road
mBiaLoss wrote:
@Sparkly,

1. I have other means of servicing the loan independent of the stock

2. Am not experienced or knowledgeable about the stocks, but I have been luck previously (Bought Sasini at 6.30 and sold at 15 but not a lot of shares)

3. Some stocks am seeing are really cheap, that the company can either go bankrupt of up. I don't see how further down they go except bankruptcy!

4. I am an expert in tolerating market fluctuations. Bought Safaricom at 4 solid at 7 and bought at 3 and just sold at 7. But dew to low vol investment I don't think am getting much. Bought Access K at 35 and at 20 and now is at what 9 bucks....that is one stupid stock. But I have learned from it!

5. I can get a cheap loan (at 7-10% interest). If take loan for 1-2yrs. And then pay out of pocket. Will the stock hold my value and return my interest and a profit? Can the stock return 20-30% in 2yrs for me to justify the loan? That is my question.


6. Am aware also that I can loose everything and that is a risk associated with business!



Leverage is good if you know what you are doing. I have done it for KCB rights at 17/=, uchumi when the market went south and NIC when it was at 25/=. I have made enough cash to pay back the loans(interest at 12%) and still have capital gains to keep in my money market fund and enjoy.

Borrowing works best when the market has sunk. You buy at the bottom and you throw your money big time. Right now the market has recovered its full value and start to look overpriced.

You need to pick a company and study it well otherwise you will burn your fingers. Concentrate on maximum 3 companies and buy like you are buying a property, have a long time horizon like 3 years. Learn to say that you are buying companies instead of saying you are buying stocks or shares. That way you will make a proper valuation of the price you are paying.

mwekez@ji
#24 Posted : Saturday, August 10, 2013 4:36:33 PM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 5/31/2011
Posts: 5,121
mBiaLoss wrote:


...

3. Some stocks am seeing are really cheap, that the company can either go bankrupt or up. I don't see how further down they go except bankruptcy!



Which specific stocks are we talking about here @mBiaLoss? ...
mBiaLoss
#25 Posted : Saturday, August 10, 2013 6:11:20 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 6/23/2010
Posts: 52
Location: Majuu
mwekez@ji wrote:
mBiaLoss wrote:


...

3. Some stocks am seeing are really cheap, that the company can either go bankrupt or up. I don't see how further down they go except bankruptcy!



Which specific stocks are we talking about here @mBiaLoss? ...



Mumias sugar, kenya airways and kenol kobil. How low can they go?
As an investor I behave like a tick, patiently waiting on grass and larch onto the first cow that shows up. As an investor I dont behave like a tick...I jump off the the cow as soon as am fully engorged before it dies...
mwekez@ji
#26 Posted : Saturday, August 10, 2013 7:18:54 PM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 5/31/2011
Posts: 5,121
mBiaLoss wrote:
mwekez@ji wrote:
mBiaLoss wrote:


...

3. Some stocks am seeing are really cheap, that the company can either go bankrupt or up. I don't see how further down they go except bankruptcy!



Which specific stocks are we talking about here @mBiaLoss? ...


Mumias sugar, kenya airways and kenol kobil. How low can they go?


... very risky counters. i believe nobody can tell how low they can go
obiero
#27 Posted : Saturday, August 10, 2013 8:34:35 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 13,556
Location: nairobi
mwekez@ji wrote:
mBiaLoss wrote:
mwekez@ji wrote:
mBiaLoss wrote:


...

3. Some stocks am seeing are really cheap, that the company can either go bankrupt or up. I don't see how further down they go except bankruptcy!



Which specific stocks are we talking about here @mBiaLoss? ...


Mumias sugar, kenya airways and kenol kobil. How low can they go?


... very risky counters. i believe nobody can tell how low they can go

KQ is unlikely to go any lower than KES 9.20

COOP 70,000 ABP 15.20; HF 90,000 ABP 3.83; KQ 414,100 ABP 7.92; MTN 23,800 ABP 6.45
mwekez@ji
#28 Posted : Saturday, August 10, 2013 8:43:27 PM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 5/31/2011
Posts: 5,121
obiero wrote:
mwekez@ji wrote:
mBiaLoss wrote:
mwekez@ji wrote:
mBiaLoss wrote:


...

3. Some stocks am seeing are really cheap, that the company can either go bankrupt or up. I don't see how further down they go except bankruptcy!



Which specific stocks are we talking about here @mBiaLoss? ...


Mumias sugar, kenya airways and kenol kobil. How low can they go?


... very risky counters. i believe nobody can tell how low they can go

KQ is unlikely to go any lower than KES 9.20


he he @obiero. your signature¡¡¡ you must be having many of these chips
obiero
#29 Posted : Saturday, August 10, 2013 10:25:02 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 13,556
Location: nairobi
mwekez@ji wrote:
obiero wrote:
mwekez@ji wrote:
mBiaLoss wrote:
mwekez@ji wrote:
mBiaLoss wrote:


...

3. Some stocks am seeing are really cheap, that the company can either go bankrupt or up. I don't see how further down they go except bankruptcy!



Which specific stocks are we talking about here @mBiaLoss? ...


Mumias sugar, kenya airways and kenol kobil. How low can they go?


... very risky counters. i believe nobody can tell how low they can go

KQ is unlikely to go any lower than KES 9.20


he he @obiero. your signature¡¡¡ you must be having many of these chips

I do and im still loadin up.. I am followin the approach of Sunil Shah, the Kisumu tycoon who made a killin from pickin the correct bottom for KCB in the 90's

COOP 70,000 ABP 15.20; HF 90,000 ABP 3.83; KQ 414,100 ABP 7.92; MTN 23,800 ABP 6.45
Siringi
#30 Posted : Sunday, August 11, 2013 5:41:39 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/8/2013
Posts: 2,517
Sikia kiyana. Now that you must take the loan, listen to the signature of one wazuan quoting siyui Einstein, " ?buy land they dont make it any more. . . " The balance you can give your stovk broker for gambling . Come back after five years and thank me.
Sell the shares ujenge hiyo plot or better still. . .Uza plot and invest in shares or another plot.
"😖😡KQ makes money for everyone except the shareholder 😏😏 " overheard in Wazua
zizzi
#31 Posted : Monday, August 12, 2013 12:48:38 AM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 3/2/2011
Posts: 33
Location: Nbi
mBiaLoss wrote:
mwekez@ji wrote:
mBiaLoss wrote:


...

3. Some stocks am seeing are really cheap, that the company can either go bankrupt or up. I don't see how further down they go except bankruptcy!



Which specific stocks are we talking about here @mBiaLoss? ...



Mumias sugar, kenya airways and kenol kobil. How low can they go?



I think this article too might be of interest to you - http://www.gurufocus.com...nking-and-the-8020-rule

Definitely check it out when you get the chance
maka
#32 Posted : Monday, August 12, 2013 1:04:43 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 4/22/2010
Posts: 11,522
Location: Nairobi
Siringi wrote:
Sikia kiyana. Now that you must take the loan, listen to the signature of one wazuan quoting siyui Einstein, " ?buy land they dont make it any more. . . " The balance you can give your stovk broker for gambling . Come back after five years and thank me.
Sell the shares ujenge hiyo plot or better still. . .Uza plot and invest in shares or another plot.


Its Mark Twain...
possunt quia posse videntur
maka
#33 Posted : Monday, August 12, 2013 1:06:46 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 4/22/2010
Posts: 11,522
Location: Nairobi
mBiaLoss wrote:
mwekez@ji wrote:
mBiaLoss wrote:


...

3. Some stocks am seeing are really cheap, that the company can either go bankrupt or up. I don't see how further down they go except bankruptcy!



Which specific stocks are we talking about here @mBiaLoss? ...



Mumias sugar, kenya airways and kenol kobil. How low can they go?


What would happen if they dont go any lower and just stagnate there?
possunt quia posse videntur
mwekez@ji
#34 Posted : Monday, August 12, 2013 2:28:42 AM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 5/31/2011
Posts: 5,121
zizzi wrote:
mBiaLoss wrote:
mwekez@ji wrote:
mBiaLoss wrote:


...

3. Some stocks am seeing are really cheap, that the company can either go bankrupt or up. I don't see how further down they go except bankruptcy!



Which specific stocks are we talking about here @mBiaLoss? ...



Mumias sugar, kenya airways and kenol kobil. How low can they go?



I think this article too might be of interest to you - http://www.gurufocus.com...nking-and-the-8020-rule

Definitely check it out when you get the chance


Interesting that @maka

................................................................................................

Mr. Munger thinks that if one does not learn this probabilistic form of thinking then a person will “go through a long life like a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest.”

"Most investors strive fruitlessly for certainty and precision, avoiding situations in which information is difficult to obtain. Yet high uncertainty is frequently accompanied by low prices. By the time the uncertainty is resolved, prices are likely to have risen. Investors frequently benefit from making investment decisions with less than perfect knowledge and are well rewarded for bearing the risk of uncertainty. The time other investors spend delving into the last unanswered detail may cost them the chance to buy in at prices so low that they offer a margin of safety despite the incomplete information." Margin of Safety, Seth Klarman

An example which is quite useful to see how one handicaps investments is to figure what percentage of one’s portfolio a person is willing to invest based on the following hypothetical scenario: A company trades at $100 a share and has a 50% probability of being worth zero and a 50% probability being worth $300 a share. How much of one’s portfolio should an investor put into this scenario? The answer is 25% according to the Kelly criterion . The Kelly formula attempts to maximize one’s net worth, but also maximizes volatility. Investor’s have a difficult time dealing with maximum volatility and trusting their analysis when a company’s value may drop 50% or more before their investment pays off. On the other hand many times investors overweight the probability of success of an investment when the odds of success are actually much lower than those projected.

". . . information generally follows the well-known 80/20 rule: the first 80 percent of the available information is gathered in the first 20 percent of the time spent. The value of in-depth fundamental analysis is subject to diminishing marginal returns." Margin of Safety, Seth Klarman
Siringi
#35 Posted : Monday, August 12, 2013 5:09:30 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/8/2013
Posts: 2,517
Shame on you Member pioneered loan failities for IPOs the massive Safcom oversubscription was largely attributed to Member financing akina Wanjiru
am sure other babks kina Family etc follwed suit siyui kama siku hizi. . .

Jamani wrote:
No bank will give you a loan or rather finance you to buy shares, or mutual funds etc. They may give you a personal loan which you may divert to buy shares. But try walking into a bank and ask for a loan to buy shares, they will laugh at you, most bankers believe stock investment is gambling.... they won't give you money to take to the "NSE casino".

"😖😡KQ makes money for everyone except the shareholder 😏😏 " overheard in Wazua
mBiaLoss
#36 Posted : Monday, August 12, 2013 5:33:21 AM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 6/23/2010
Posts: 52
Location: Majuu
zizzi wrote:
mBiaLoss wrote:
mwekez@ji wrote:
mBiaLoss wrote:


...

3. Some stocks am seeing are really cheap, that the company can either go bankrupt or up. I don't see how further down they go except bankruptcy!



Which specific stocks are we talking about here @mBiaLoss? ...



Mumias sugar, kenya airways and kenol kobil. How low can they go?



I think this article too might be of interest to you - http://www.gurufocus.com...nking-and-the-8020-rule

Definitely check it out when you get the chance


Thanks I read the article, it just re-enforces my chain of thought. If you invest in stock that is priced so low, there are only two chances, either the company goes bankrupt and you loose everything, or the company recovers and you gain a lot.
Does anybody really think that KQ will soon go bankrupt? I don't think so, but what if it does go bankrupt and I lose all borrowed money? That is a risk am will to take right now!
As an investor I behave like a tick, patiently waiting on grass and larch onto the first cow that shows up. As an investor I dont behave like a tick...I jump off the the cow as soon as am fully engorged before it dies...
mBiaLoss
#37 Posted : Monday, August 12, 2013 5:36:12 AM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 6/23/2010
Posts: 52
Location: Majuu
Siringi wrote:
Sikia kiyana. Now that you must take the loan, listen to the signature of one wazuan quoting siyui Einstein, " ?buy land they dont make it any more. . . " The balance you can give your stovk broker for gambling . Come back after five years and thank me.
Sell the shares ujenge hiyo plot or better still. . .Uza plot and invest in shares or another plot.



But not living in kenya right now and with all the crooks that have invaded the land business...isnt the risk for me buying land the same as buying shares? Just a thought
As an investor I behave like a tick, patiently waiting on grass and larch onto the first cow that shows up. As an investor I dont behave like a tick...I jump off the the cow as soon as am fully engorged before it dies...
mBiaLoss
#38 Posted : Monday, August 12, 2013 5:38:13 AM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 6/23/2010
Posts: 52
Location: Majuu
maka wrote:
mBiaLoss wrote:
mwekez@ji wrote:
mBiaLoss wrote:


Am looking to hold for 2-3 yrs and wait it out!
...

3. Some stocks am seeing are really cheap, that the company can either go bankrupt or up. I don't see how further down they go except bankruptcy!



Which specific stocks are we talking about here @mBiaLoss? ...



Mumias sugar, kenya airways and kenol kobil. How low can they go?


What would happen if they dont go any lower and just stagnate there?

As an investor I behave like a tick, patiently waiting on grass and larch onto the first cow that shows up. As an investor I dont behave like a tick...I jump off the the cow as soon as am fully engorged before it dies...
mwekez@ji
#39 Posted : Monday, August 12, 2013 5:41:56 AM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 5/31/2011
Posts: 5,121
mBiaLoss wrote:
zizzi wrote:
mBiaLoss wrote:
mwekez@ji wrote:
mBiaLoss wrote:


...

3. Some stocks am seeing are really cheap, that the company can either go bankrupt or up. I don't see how further down they go except bankruptcy!



Which specific stocks are we talking about here @mBiaLoss? ...



Mumias sugar, kenya airways and kenol kobil. How low can they go?



I think this article too might be of interest to you - http://www.gurufocus.com...nking-and-the-8020-rule

Definitely check it out when you get the chance


Thanks I read the article, it just re-enforces my chain of thought. If you invest in stock that is priced so low, there are only two chances, either the company goes bankrupt and you loose everything, or the company recovers and you gain a lot.
Does anybody really think that KQ will soon go bankrupt? I don't think so, but what if it does go bankrupt and I lose all borrowed money? That is a risk am will to take right now!


@mBiaLoss, the loan you are getting is very cheap. Is it a USD loan or its a KES loan from a special source not accessible to public or ……. On these very risky counters, don’t put all your eggs in them. Note “Kelly criterion” in the article
symbols
#40 Posted : Monday, August 12, 2013 5:47:27 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/19/2013
Posts: 2,552
mBiaLoss wrote:
zizzi wrote:
mBiaLoss wrote:
mwekez@ji wrote:
mBiaLoss wrote:


...

3. Some stocks am seeing are really cheap, that the company can either go bankrupt or up. I don't see how further down they go except bankruptcy!



Which specific stocks are we talking about here @mBiaLoss? ...



Mumias sugar, kenya airways and kenol kobil. How low can they go?



I think this article too might be of interest to you - http://www.gurufocus.com...nking-and-the-8020-rule

Definitely check it out when you get the chance


Thanks I read the article, it just re-enforces my chain of thought. If you invest in stock that is priced so low, there are only two chances, either the company goes bankrupt and you loose everything, or the company recovers and you gain a lot.
Does anybody really think that KQ will soon go bankrupt? I don't think so, but what if it does go bankrupt and I lose all borrowed money? That is a risk am will to take right now!


What amount are you talking about and how long are you willing to hold onto the shares?
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