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The Mortgage Company - Any Info on Them?
Rank: Veteran Joined: 4/1/2009 Posts: 1,883
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a4architect.com wrote:mkenyan wrote:a4architect.com wrote:@mkenyan. Info on my website is well within all Kenyan laws.
The law is clear, TMC can not offer services that should be offered by arch/eng/qs. Unless law is changed.
The info on my site is within law. FYI, the investment described in my site is for any potential investor to use as a GUIDELINE.
There is no law broken there.
Lets stick to facts here. I cant count the websites similar to TMC here in Kenya purpoting to offer arch/eng/qs services illegaly.There are many. The day anyone will start a thread here on wazua asking me to give an opinion, you can be sure i will contribute. If TMC want to give info on construction, then they need to ask the arch/eng/qs or consult with AAK on what is legal or not. Ignorance is never a defence in court.
Thats why i mainly give info on construction which i have facts on my fingertips, including the laws that are being broken. Even if i found a loop hole in say medial law, it would be unfair for me to use it for financial gain without disclosure to the public.
I see TMC also offer other services such as mortgage etc which i am not well conversant on the laws governing them. But as for construction advisory services, i have alot to say about this. the information on your website is just a guideline. i agree with that. now why don't you want to take the information on tmc's website as a guideline before accusing them of all manner of illegalities? and from the tmc's website, how exactly are they breaking the law? is it by undertaking to follow up on the construction on behalf of the owner? if you are kind enough do point out the exact law they are breaking? @mkenyan. TMC are not allowed by Law to offer any info,let alone a simple guideline, on construction consultancy in Kenya. Architects eg myself are allowed by law to give the public e.g you any information regarding construction advisory. TMC are not allowed by law to give the same advisory services. This is because for you and the general public, Govt needs to protect you from buying unregulated advisory services. Govt vets and checks persons offering advisory services to the public to see if they meet certain standards/skill set. Thats why the Buruburu fake doc was arested. He most probably could offer medical services well but unfortunately, the law is the law. Only a doctor who has met Govt criteria is supposed to offer such.His crime was to offer medical services without a practicing cert. If TMC wants to offer such services legally, nothing stops them to lobby parliament to change the law. TMC are not architects, engineers or Quantity surveyors hence are not legally in a capacity to offer such services to the public. Read the law TMC is breaking here http://www.boraqs.or.ke/userfiles/CAP%20525.pdf
See here on TMC on how they are breaking the law http://www.tmcafrica.com/our-services/makazi-mema
Quote:TMC Project Management Services
To ensure that the contractor adheres to the agreed timelines for constructing the House within Six (6) months for Bungalows and 9(Nine) months for Maisonette after approval of the Plans and uses all reasonable care, skill and workmanship in construction of the houses.
To inspect and oversee the construction process for and on behalf of the client. TMC Project Management Services
To co-ordinate the various recommended professionals; Architects, Quantity surveyors, valuers, financier, and contractor.
Through the various professionals; To prepare the requisite Bill of Quantities, house designs, Architectural plans and incidental documentation relating to each house;
To submit the Plans to the respective local authority for approval PROVIDED that the costs thereof will be borne by the end buyer;
To collect for and on behalf of the contractor the deposits on construction from the client. Such tasks in red above have already been gazetted to be offered only by persons that satisfy certain criteria and standards eg 1. requisite education eg degree in relevant field of study 2.work for 2 years minimum under a registerd arch/eng/qs 3. Sit a professional exam and pass. 4. Keep renewing practicing cert every year etc etc I have also noted that they are purporting to submit plans to local authority for approval. Again under the Local Authority act throughout the country, only a client or an architect can submit the same. In Nairobi, its even more strict whereby only an architect can submit the same . thanks for clarifying that. was never aware of such restrictions and that act you link too is too big to read now. btw, des that mean if i carry out such work for a relative out of the country i shall actually be breaking the law or it is the mass offering of the services which is illegal?
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/4/2010 Posts: 1,668 Location: nairobi
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@mkenyan. Welcome. If you do it personally without involving the public, no one will bother you. If you solicit to offer the services to the public, the law will take its course. The logic for this law is to prevent unknowing people to pay/consume services from people who have no training/skills/experience in construction consulting. For example, you approach TMC for services to build a house in Runda. On average, construction cost in Runda is around 40k and above per m2 due to the class/standards of the area.TMC gives you a low quality house for a high quality area. You are then stuck with a house in an expensive area but get low rents. You also have a not so unique building hence reducing the value of the area. This works also the other way round. You buy land in Isinya then TMC builds for you at 27 to 28k per m2. You have used more money hence cant recoup your investment since all your neighbours/competition has built with 20k per m2 and below. Thats one of the many reasons you need consultants aptly trained and certified by Govt to avoid such confusions. Consumers need to be told all disclosure before. The only way to avoid this is for Govt to set standards as to who can offer such services. Govt comes up with a law criminalizing offering such services if you are not an arch,eng or qs so as to maintain law and order. This avoids unnecessary strains to judicial system and encourages growth/order as a country. As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/20/2007 Posts: 767
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@a4, your whole case is based on assumptions. TMC has already said they will co-ordinate the professionals and you have posted that information yourself under "TMC construction management services". All TMC is offering is one stop construction shop. I go to them with land and they will help me arrange for the professionals and the financing without having to run around and visit many offices and all this at a reasonable cost. Granted, some people have achieved 20k/metre square but at what cost of runing around, calling the architect to come to site, calling the structural engineer, supervising the contractors etc. I feel you have no case. What is to stop TMC from getting into contractual agreements with the Qs/Arch/structural engineers to offer their services to TMC clients at a particular rate. In any case, they probably have template designs that the client will pick and this will reduce costs. In you example above, I am yet to see someone purchase a 20million plot in Runda then put up a 2 million house on it, and blame the architect for misadvising him. Does that even make sense? I have however seen people build mansions in the village but never heard of someone complain that he did it by mistake and should have consulted an architect. In fact, the bigger the house, the happier the architect. They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/4/2010 Posts: 1,668 Location: nairobi
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tom_boy wrote:@a4, your whole case is based on assumptions. TMC has already said they will co-ordinate the professionals and you have posted that information yourself under "TMC construction management services". All TMC is offering is one stop construction shop. I go to them with land and they will help me arrange for the professionals and the financing without having to run around and visit many offices and all this at a reasonable cost. Granted, some people have achieved 20k/metre square but at what cost of runing around, calling the architect to come to site, calling the structural engineer, supervising the contractors etc.
I feel you have no case. What is to stop TMC from getting into contractual agreements with the Qs/Arch/structural engineers to offer their services to TMC clients at a particular rate. In any case, they probably have template designs that the client will pick and this will reduce costs.
In you example above, I am yet to see someone purchase a 20million plot in Runda then put up a 2 million house on it, and blame the architect for misadvising him. Does that even make sense?
I have however seen people build mansions in the village but never heard of someone complain that he did it by mistake and should have consulted an architect. In fact, the bigger the house, the happier the architect.
@tom boy. Be specific. Am not prosecuting TMC here. I am giving my opinion and basing it on facts as posted by TMC on their website and laws as enforced in Kenya. When TMC says expressly as below 1. To inspect and oversee the construction process for and on behalf of the client. 2.To submit the Plans to the respective local authority for approval PROVIDED that the costs thereof will be borne by the end buyer;Lets keep the argument as to whether TMC are in the capacity to offer such services. To me, based on this law here http://www.boraqs.or.ke/userfiles/CAP%20525.pdf
they are not in a capacity. As to whether some peope find it inconveniencing to run around looking for arch/eng/qs, its up to parliament to amend the law to allow TMC or any other person to offer such coordinating services. Also, your suggestion that TMC should enter into agreement with arch/qs/eng at a particular rate is also illegal. Read this law again http://www.boraqs.or.ke/userfiles/CAP%20525.pdf
Check page 17. It forms part of unprofessional conduct . Its not me who came up with such laws. We all know how to change/amend laws, through parliament or through Supreme court interpretation. In summary, for TMC to offer a 1 stop shop, they need to amend their website and have it include the consultancy part publicly. Housing Finance have done that with the Makao product and no one is complaining.We all know the consultants involved in Makao. What is so hard in following the law? If you google for house plans you will see hundreds of websites i the US. Each of these website FULLY complies with the law of the land whereby standards are kept as to how the public are to procure construction related services. Not every tom,dick and harry can purport to sell these online . In my example, am trying to explain that its easy to confuse a client who has land in runda into buying lower cost of construction if the info is not well explained by someone with the training and skill to do it and vice versa. Lets be specific. The TMC product being sold at Korrompoi, near Isinya is at kes 27 to 28k per m2. All buildings around Isinya have an average of 20k per m2 cost since they are self build,low to middle cost finishes. Closer to Kitengela town, costs rise again to between 25 to 35k per m2. Towards cbd, costs rise to 35 to 50k per m2. This change in costs is commensurate to land value and ROI. Either TMC completely lets their Qs deal with this advisory or ask their clients to seek it from the experts .Generally, clients will calculate and decide.Legaly, if mechanisms are set for this info to go to the public using best practice, arch/qs/eng will advise and appropriate action taken. As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/20/2007 Posts: 767
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a4architect.com wrote:Quote:TMC Project Management Services
To ensure that the contractor adheres to the agreed timelines for constructing the House within Six (6) months for Bungalows and 9(Nine) months for Maisonette after approval of the Plans and uses all reasonable care, skill and workmanship in construction of the houses.
To inspect and oversee the construction process for and on behalf of the client. TMC Project Management Services
To co-ordinate the various recommended professionals; Architects, Quantity surveyors, valuers, financier, and contractor.
Through the various professionals; To prepare the requisite Bill of Quantities, house designs, Architectural plans and incidental documentation relating to each house;
To submit the Plans to the respective local authority for approval PROVIDED that the costs thereof will be borne by the end buyer;
To collect for and on behalf of the contractor the deposits on construction from the client. Such tasks in red above have already been gazetted to be offered only by persons that satisfy certain criteria and standards eg 1. requisite education eg degree in relevant field of study 2.work for 2 years minimum under a registerd arch/eng/qs 3. Sit a professional exam and pass. 4. Keep renewing practicing cert every year etc etc I have also noted that they are purporting to submit plans to local authority for approval. Again under the Local Authority act throughout the country, only a client or an architect can submit the same. In Nairobi, its even more strict whereby only an architect can submit the same . @a4, are you not the one who posted above at post #59 but conveniently fail to highlight the part about professionals being involved. I have assisted you by putting it in blue above. So, your beef with TMC is that they have not listed the specific consultants they are working with. I think that can be easily resolved by asking them. From your post, it seems you support HFCK model but not TMC model yet both are doing the same thing. this is a copy n paste from the law you have provided , 45A. (1) The Board may approve the entry into partnership of a registered person with an unregistered personIn light of the above , do you still hold on to the assumption that there is no way TMC can be working with qualified professionals. If you do, it only means that you are privy to some information that you have decided not to share! They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/4/2010 Posts: 1,668 Location: nairobi
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@tom mboy. TMC has only mentioned professionals for ONLY pre construction services. No mention of professionals on supervision. TMC even goes ahead to say they will offer this service themselves. TMC needs to publicly name their professionals if they exist. It could be a typo .If its a typo, i hope they will rectify. Once they do that, the public can then rest assured of consumer protection. We can now know who to go to for info on the TMC products. The law is designed such that TMC and its customers cant be held liable for any defect during construction if there were consultants appointed.The law assumes te consultants will ensure consumer protection. Without consultants, the consumer is left on their own. Housing Finance have listed the consultants as per the norm within construction industry worldwide. HFCK model does not break any known law. Once you opt in on Makao, all laws used in construction industry apply. As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/20/2007 Posts: 767
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a4architect.com wrote:@tom mboy. TMC has only mentioned professionals for ONLY pre construction services. No mention of professionals on supervision. TMC even goes ahead to say they will offer this service themselves. TMC needs to publicly name their professionals if they exist. It could be a typo .If its a typo, i hope they will rectify. Once they do that, the public can then rest assured of consumer protection. We can now know who to go to for info on the TMC products. The law is designed such that TMC and its customers cant be held liable for any defect during construction if there were consultants appointed.The law assumes te consultants will ensure consumer protection. Without consultants, the consumer is left on their own. Housing Finance have listed the consultants as per the norm within construction industry worldwide. HFCK model does not break any known law. Once you opt in on Makao, all laws used in construction industry apply.
Now, you have made it even easier for TMC. Keeping in mind that the client will pay some 50k for supervisory services as noted in earlier threads, surely this is enough to pay an architect and a structural engineer to make site visits and make recommendations. As you have stated above, the drawings have already been done professionally and approved within the 25-27k per metre square cost. Anyone who has done construction work knows that 90% of the job is done when you have properly professionally prepared and approved plans. The actual building process is really the easy part. The law also allows TMC to partner with the professionals as noted above. So, in short, your whole arguement Mr. a4 is based on semantics and no substance. I repeat, unless you have information that we don't have, stopping short of calling TMC crooks based on wording on their website is not fair. They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/4/2010 Posts: 1,668 Location: nairobi
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bottom line is TMC needs to follow all laws n not assume anything. Misrepresenting to offer arch services is criminally n morally wrong. Lets agree to disagree and end this debate. Lets agree that to you TMC models is ok and gives good returns to the public. Lets agree for me TMC model does not sit well within Kenyan and international legal standards. We can then agree to disagree amicably and move on to other issues. As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/20/2007 Posts: 767
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a4architect.com wrote:bottom line is TMC needs to follow all laws n not assume anything. Misrepresenting to offer arch services is criminally n morally wrong. @a4, I think you are the one who is mis-representing what is on TMC website. The law already allows them to partner with the professionals in delivering the services. By TMC stating that they will oversee the construction of the project, it is quite obvious that if they are in partnership with a certified professional, common english dictates that the "we" refers to TMC + the professional. a4architect.com wrote:Lets agree to disagree and end this debate. Lets not sweep issues under the carpet. I respect you as a professional and for you to come out so strongly and call another entreprenuer a crook, just based on wording on a website a4architect.com wrote:Lets agree that to you TMC models is ok and gives good returns to the public. I do not know about TMC giving good returns or not. What I do know is that they are trying to do things differently. They should not be branded crooks for that. a4architect.com wrote:Lets agree for me TMC model does not sit well within Kenyan and international legal standards.
We can then agree to disagree amicably and move on to other issues. The wording on the HFCK makao product and that on the TMC website can be construed to mean the same thing. The basis of your differentiating between the two and claiming one to be legal and another illegal has elluded me. I will quote for the sake of clarity From HFCK , Makao productIn this unique product, Housing Finance has brought together a consortium of professionals in the construction industry - Architects, Project Managers, Quantity Surveyors, Structural engineers, Legal Advisors, Services Engineers and Contractors - who will work together to ensure the complete delivery of your preferred home. From TMC websiteTo ensure that the contractor adheres to the agreed timelines for constructing the House within Six (6) months for Bungalows and 9(Nine) months for Maisonette after approval of the Plans and uses all reasonable care, skill and workmanship in construction of the houses. To inspect and oversee the construction process for and on behalf of the client. To co-ordinate the various recommended professionals; Architects, Quantity surveyors, valuers, financier, and contractor. Pray tell me, what is the difference in final english meaning of the two statements in the different websites. And finally, I have gone through the HFCK website and I do not see the list of professionals that they are using. Maybe I have missed it, please direct me to it. I now rest my case. All your arguements have fallen flat. Unless you have inside information about the workings in TMC, I would suggest you stop tarnishing their name based on wordings on a website. They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/4/2010 Posts: 1,668 Location: nairobi
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@tomboy. The "We" in the TMC website is clear. It means TMC. Legally, TMC are in no capacity to offer such services to the public. To inspect and oversee the construction process for and on behalf of the client.If the law says that for example, @tom boy should not offer service A, @tom boy goes ahead to offer it, knowingly or unknowingly, then @tom boy will be deemed to have broken a law. Whether @tom boy will be called a crook or not is not for me to tell, its for the Judicial system, either Litigation or arbitration. Check HFCK Makao team here.HFCK is clear to the public that their role is to bring together and not to execute professional roles. TMC should also be very clear that their role is to bring together and not to execute/act on any technical roles. These are all registered professionals in the HFCK setup with practicing certificates to offer such services http://www.makaohomes.com/Team
Quote:This team comprises of the following: Contacts & Profiles to be provided. Estate Agents - Property Point Location: Rehani House Street: Kenyatta Avenue / Koinange Street Address: P.O. Box 30088 – 00100 NBO, Kenya Tel: +254 20 317474 / 3262000 Cell: 0722-715256 / 0733 617682 Fax: +254 20 250858 Email: propertypoint@housing.co.keURL: www.propertypoint.co.keArchitects / Project Managers - Adventis In-house Africa Limited Location: AIA House Street: Kaputei Road off Othaya Road, Lavington Address: P.O. Box 13310 – 00100 NBO, Kenya Tel: +254 20 3870953 / 20 3873964 Fax: +254 20 3870896 Email: info@adventis-africa.comQuantity Surveyors - Ecospace Consultants Location: KCB Building, Industrial Area Address: P.O. Box 74885 – 00200 NBO, Kenya Tel: +254 20 555226 / 20 535751 Email: ecospace@kenyaweb.comLegal Advisers - Muriu Mungai & Co- Advocates Location: Britak Center, Ground Floor Street: Mara / Ragati Road, Upper hill Address: P.O. Box 75362 – 00200 NBO, Kenya Tel (Pilot): +254 20 273 6332 Cell: 0720 585785 / 0734 333339 Fax: +254 20 2734474 Email: info@wakili.comURL: www.wakili.comCivil Engineers - Frame Consultants Limited Location: Loita House, 3rd Floor Street: Loita Street, CBD Address: P.O. Box 58624 – 00200 NBO, Kenya Tel: +254 20 2213744 / 251505 Cell: 0720 523850 Fax: +254 20 2213990 Email:info@frameconsultants.com URL: www.frameconsultants.comService Engineers - Feradon Associates Location: Golf Course estate Street: Muchai Road Address: P.O. Box 7375 – 00300 NBO, Kenya Tel: +254 20 2716143 / 2723754 / 2727786 Fax: +254 20 2727555 Email: consult@feradon.com Now, show me anywhere TMC has such a public list. Its an open secret that alot of Kenyans only involve professionals for approval process but go ahead to supervise using fundis. The building that collapsed along Ronald Ngala had same issue. The owner only used an architect to stamp the building for council approval. He then wen ahead to supervise with his foreman/contractor/fundi. Lets all agree that for Kenya to prosper, laws ahave to be followed. There are no shortcuts. HFCK have not used any short cuts. Why should TMC use such? Check the capacity of HFCK Project Mnagement team. No doubt about their ability to perform. Now check out the TMC project management team and compare. There is a reason why in all civilsed societies, some professions have been gazeted to only be offered by certified people. We all saw what happens to Haiti after not enforcing such laws. Its also common sense that for the country to develop a pool of knowledge, we have to let the best offer the services. This way, students/public can know where to go for info. The HFCK consultants will in future share their knowledge with students/other consultants and over time, Kenya will grow. With TMC, there is no knowledge transfer to the next generation. As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/17/2008 Posts: 23,365 Location: Nairobi
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Wow....very compelling arguments!!! ..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
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