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The Mortgage Company - Any Info on Them?
tonicasert
#21 Posted : Friday, August 02, 2013 1:14:14 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 3/10/2008
Posts: 301
Location: Abu Dhabi
Has any wazuan constructed using TMC's services?
a4architect.com
#22 Posted : Friday, August 02, 2013 2:34:52 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
stocksmaster wrote:
Olu wrote:
Elder wrote:
Came across this company during the just ended Expo. Their website doesn't offer much, no history of their projects that I can find and their office numbers are cell phones. Anybody dealt with them or know more about them?



Their Makazi mema product is really good. Call one of their representatives and they can take you to one of their show houses. I think they have a tour bus scheduled for this Saturday unless am mistaken.


The Morgage Company stand at the just ended Housing Expo was my best moment.
Its Makazi Mema product if well marketed may prove to be a game changer in the morgage industry in Kenya. That lady must be a genious!!

This is how the Makazi Mema product rolls out:
The Morgage company has brought together 2 other partners:
1. Rafiki Deposit Taking Microfinance
2. Oaks Construction Company

Step 1. The Morgage Company first conducts a due deligence to ascertain ability to pay morgage.
Step 2. An individual needs at least an eigth of an acre (50 by 100 plot)- The Rafiki Microfinance will finance upto 70% of the purchase price of the plot.
Step 3. With a title deed in hand, you are given about 6 designs to choose from ranging from 2 bedroom house of 50sqm to a 4 bedroom of 150 sqm.
Step 4. The Oaks Costruction company is given the funds to construct the hse and within 4-6 months, the house is ready for occupation.

What makes the product great?
1. The house is delivered at cost ie the smallest house of 50sqm is projected to cost Ksh 1M; the largest house of 150sqm is projected to cost Ksh 3.5M. (This means the construction costs are within a range of Ksh 20,000 - 23,500 per sqm).
2. Since the houses are delivered at cost, the morgage repayment amount is approximately half the amount a similar buyer of a house will pay if the house is bought from a housing developer. ie The 4 bedroom house of 150sqm which is delivered at a cost of Ksh 3.5M would be priced at about Ksh 6-7M if bought from a housing development company.
Repayment amounts over a 10 year period therefore range from Ksh 18,019 (for the 50sqm house) to Ksh 63,056 (for the 150sqm 4 bedroom house). The key to this reduced morgage repayment figures is based on getting the house at actual cost hence eliminating the mark-up imposed by developers.
3. Repayment starts after occupation.....means it can be a seamless transfer from rent payment to morgage payment.
4. Ready designs available for clients to choose from.

The product targets the middle class. I only wish they can upgrade the ceiling to houses whose construction costs are about Ksh 5-6M (about 220 -260sqm) with a repayment of about Ksh 90,000 - 108,000 p.m.

They also need to up their marketting of this great product......i was informed that more than 500 people registered for the product during the Expo!

Happy Hunting and Kudos to Carol Kariuki.


If actual construction is delivered at cost, how does the contractor make his money?
Who pays for construction project management?
Any one here who can share with us the final house pictures?
As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
stocksmaster
#23 Posted : Friday, August 02, 2013 2:51:44 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 9/26/2006
Posts: 405
Location: CENTRAL PROVINCE
a4architect.com wrote:
stocksmaster wrote:
Olu wrote:
Elder wrote:
Came across this company during the just ended Expo. Their website doesn't offer much, no history of their projects that I can find and their office numbers are cell phones. Anybody dealt with them or know more about them?



Their Makazi mema product is really good. Call one of their representatives and they can take you to one of their show houses. I think they have a tour bus scheduled for this Saturday unless am mistaken.


The Morgage Company stand at the just ended Housing Expo was my best moment.
Its Makazi Mema product if well marketed may prove to be a game changer in the morgage industry in Kenya. That lady must be a genious!!

This is how the Makazi Mema product rolls out:
The Morgage company has brought together 2 other partners:
1. Rafiki Deposit Taking Microfinance
2. Oaks Construction Company

Step 1. The Morgage Company first conducts a due deligence to ascertain ability to pay morgage.
Step 2. An individual needs at least an eigth of an acre (50 by 100 plot)- The Rafiki Microfinance will finance upto 70% of the purchase price of the plot.
Step 3. With a title deed in hand, you are given about 6 designs to choose from ranging from 2 bedroom house of 50sqm to a 4 bedroom of 150 sqm.
Step 4. The Oaks Costruction company is given the funds to construct the hse and within 4-6 months, the house is ready for occupation.

What makes the product great?
1. The house is delivered at cost ie the smallest house of 50sqm is projected to cost Ksh 1M; the largest house of 150sqm is projected to cost Ksh 3.5M. (This means the construction costs are within a range of Ksh 20,000 - 23,500 per sqm).
2. Since the houses are delivered at cost, the morgage repayment amount is approximately half the amount a similar buyer of a house will pay if the house is bought from a housing developer. ie The 4 bedroom house of 150sqm which is delivered at a cost of Ksh 3.5M would be priced at about Ksh 6-7M if bought from a housing development company.
Repayment amounts over a 10 year period therefore range from Ksh 18,019 (for the 50sqm house) to Ksh 63,056 (for the 150sqm 4 bedroom house). The key to this reduced morgage repayment figures is based on getting the house at actual cost hence eliminating the mark-up imposed by developers.
3. Repayment starts after occupation.....means it can be a seamless transfer from rent payment to morgage payment.
4. Ready designs available for clients to choose from.

The product targets the middle class. I only wish they can upgrade the ceiling to houses whose construction costs are about Ksh 5-6M (about 220 -260sqm) with a repayment of about Ksh 90,000 - 108,000 p.m.

They also need to up their marketting of this great product......i was informed that more than 500 people registered for the product during the Expo!

Happy Hunting and Kudos to Carol Kariuki.


If actual construction is delivered at cost, how does the contractor make his money?
Who pays for construction project management?
Any one here who can share with us the final house pictures?


A friend is currently constructing his 200sqm mansion at a cost of about Ksh 5M (Ksh 25,000 per sqm) through this Makazi Mema Product.

Management fees is paid by the client of about Ksh 50,000.

The design was his and only a few modifications were done by the Morgage Company.

Will try and send pictures once i visit the site.

As to how the construction company makes its money, the Ksh 25,000 per sqm must have factored in a modest margin based on expectations of high volumes.

Happy Hunting.
a4architect.com
#24 Posted : Friday, August 02, 2013 3:35:54 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
from past experience i can foresee how this model will go . I have never seen successful construction projects implemented without the consulting management part.
How can 50k be enough to cater for architect/qs/engineer services?
How do they resolve issues without the consulting arm of arch/qs/engineer? How do they ensure structural integrity without consultants?
How do they ensure customers who would like higher quality constructions get their worth?
Generally, people who afford to construct houses over 150m2 also tend to choose high end finishes, with costings of over 30k per m2.
With a budget of 50k, is there advisory from architect/qs to customers so as not to have a Kayole like building in Runda mismatch?

Kenyans need to learn from more developed economies eg South Africa. No need for a mortgage company to offer services suposed to be offered by other professionals. TMC needs to partner with consultancy firms for it to survive. I can foresee legal suits due to poorly constructed buildings, budget overruns etc.
As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
Gathige
#25 Posted : Friday, August 02, 2013 4:23:01 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/29/2011
Posts: 2,242
a4architect.com wrote:
from past experience i can foresee how this model will go . I have never seen successful construction projects implemented without the consulting management part.
How can 50k be enough to cater for architect/qs/engineer services?
How do they resolve issues without the consulting arm of arch/qs/engineer? How do they ensure structural integrity without consultants?
How do they ensure customers who would like higher quality constructions get their worth?
Generally, people who afford to construct houses over 150m2 also tend to choose high end finishes, with costings of over 30k per m2.
With a budget of 50k, is there advisory from architect/qs to customers so as not to have a Kayole like building in Runda mismatch?

Kenyans need to learn from more developed economies eg South Africa. No need for a mortgage company to offer services suposed to be offered by other professionals. TMC needs to partner with consultancy firms for it to survive. I can foresee legal suits due to poorly constructed buildings, budget overruns etc.



@a4a, TMC has identified a gap in the market which they are addressing. Majority of Kenyans are looking for affordable housing and the TMC seems to be helping. As raised above, it seems their target is the middle market who have a shoe-string budget. For the higher end of the market who can afford all the professionals i am sure they will not go the TMC way.

I have had several drawings that needed approvals and my draftsman has facilitated the architects and QS "stamps" at a small fee. I understand the risk for small projects but the day i "vuka border" i will get the right professional as i will have the capacity to pay.
"Things that matter most must never be at the mercy of things that matter least." Goethe
a4architect.com
#26 Posted : Friday, August 02, 2013 4:59:02 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
@gathige. Even for the lowest end market,there is need for companies to give full discolsure to their customers.
As the country moves forward, i would love to see very cheap but organised buildings like in South Africa. There are various ways to pool professional fees together. TMC should work with any architect who can then give subsidised services as opposed to letting Kenyans risk their millions .
After several lawsuits from disatisfied cutomers is when they will realise the damage they are giving . To me this is falls in the borderline of mis asadvicing clients. There is no way Kenya can move forward if companies are let to mis advice consumers. Use of the right personnel for the right job ensures savings/production to the end user.

In your case with the draftsman, this is ok since you willingly decide to follow this route hence shoulder any losses.
For a company to mis inform customers, the customers are not given any choice.

All commonsense and logic shows that any person who ulitises services of consultants in their project saves money.
Prove me wrong on this. Even for a slum house, the slum lord who will get the best consultancy will eventually save money.

Any division of labour i.e arch/eng/qs should result in efficiency and productivity.

By taking shortcuts around this is by no means innovative. In the beginning, it will look like a saving but eventually, the loss will befall all as a country.
This is the same logic that all developer whose buildings collapse have. To them, they think they are innovative.
If the whole country does not encourage n support consultancy, who will come up with cost saving research? The foreman, fundi or mtu wa mkono? unfortunately not.
Lets use the right skillset for the right job for a better tomorrow.

This is how consumers are protected from buying poor services in Kenya.

http://www.news24.co.ke/...n-can-be-taken-20130802

Quote:
airobi - Big firms have come underfire from the Anti Counterfeit Agency (ACA) for not being proactive, leading to a rise in counterfeit goods in supermarket shelves.

In a statement to Capital News, ACA Chief Executive Officer Stephen Mallowah said that companies do not report counterfeits infringing on their brands, causing increase in fake goods in the Kenyan market.

Mallowah added that until brand owners formally complain, there is nothing the agency can do, as many fear the bad press their brands will get and opt to remain silent.


Very true. Unless AAK and other bodies that regulate construction in Kenya take over, its not easy for any random person to complain.
As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
CLK
#27 Posted : Sunday, August 04, 2013 8:48:06 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 4/1/2009
Posts: 846
I think what the mortgage company is doing makes a lot of sense, if i were to take a mortgage from a bank on a 6m house say the NSSF flats in Nyayo Embakasi

If say the above house cost say 3m to build, the property owner pegs it at 6m making a profit of 3m
The bank charges interest of 14-17% or more over a period of 15-20yrs doubling/tripling the 6m market rate.

TMC, are cutting the middlemen and the banks besides the cost for building is minus the initial cost of the plot, this justifies how they will make the profits.

I think TMC are finding a better way of investing their money while creating employment and cheaper/affordable housing for Kenyans..
a4architect.com
#28 Posted : Monday, August 05, 2013 1:31:19 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
@clk.
There are ways to reduce construction cost eg using innovative tech eg south african moladi etc etc.
http://www.moladi.net/

http://www.frametech.co.za/

These methods are based on science and usually have consumer protection standards e.g engineering.arch.qs specifications.

TMC method is not showing any new way of reducing construction cost apart from crude shortcuts of undercutting consultants.

@pennystocker here in wazua is achieving much less than TMC with his kes 20k per m2.

http://www.wazua.co.ke/f...px?g=posts&m=415602

80% of Kenyans construct using @pennystockers method and it works.

The TMC method is faulty because it costs slightly more than self build but with risks. In self build, owner decides how to deal with risks eg by reducing them and including consultants .
In TMC method, they dont give the owner an ability to reduce their risk.
They also dont help to add on to knowledge base that can propel Kenya to South African construction innovation level.

With the TMC method at kes 27k per m2, this is too much for the service compared with the facxt that someone can still get the same for kes 20k per m2 and still manage to include consultants to reduce risk.
As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
a4architect.com
#29 Posted : Monday, August 05, 2013 2:40:09 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi


Here TMC say their cost is kes 20k per m2, nealy same as @pennystockers cost.

http://www.tmcafrica.com/our-services/makazi-mema


Here, they contradict themselves. Only a very Keen customer with ability to calculate cost per m2 can see this.
The cost moves up to kes 27k per m2.

http://www.tmcafrica.com/our-services/makazi-mema

2 BR - 55sqm (Kes 1,500,000)

This works out to 27k per m2.
As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
Litro
#30 Posted : Monday, August 05, 2013 2:43:24 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 7/22/2009
Posts: 120
Location: KENYA
@a4a.. Your main problem with TMC seems to be on whether payment for consultancy fees has been factored in!! Have you checked with them and confirmed that the 50k is not enough given the economies of scale. I also dare say that Architects and Qs's collaborate and inflate building costs so as to get higher fees..
a4architect.com
#31 Posted : Monday, August 05, 2013 4:06:24 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
@litro.
Architect/Qs fees are based on actual construction cost. Actual construction cost is the amount of money a developer pays a contractor.
A contractor is selected through tendering where the best/lowest contractor is chosen. How then can architects/qs inflate this? Its impossible.
A construction contract involves only 2 parties
1.developer
2. contractor.
Arch/qs cant increase the sum in the contract unless thru variation again authorized by developer.
With many people not understanding how construction process works, its very easy for unregulated players to take advantage of consumers.

I personally get a few issues monthly from house buyers whose houses are cracking,leaking and many other structural defect.

My first question to them is whether they know their architect/eng/qs. They have no idea. They only know the developer.
Under kenyan laws, nothing can be done to the developers unless under law of tort.
If these were more informed, they should have insisted on seeing arch/eng certifiations to inspections etc.
This taking adavantage of gullible Kenyans needs to be stopped by someone.
My main issue with TMC is that they are not giving consumers all the info . For example, their construction cost is at kes 27 to 28k per m2. This by any standards is high enough for any customer to construct , hire professionals to check standards and still remain with change.

As per Kenyan law and all laws governing construction in all other countries, construction industry is regulated in an orderly manner so as to protect consumers.
Unfortunately, consumers if left to themselves can easly unknowingly perform Harakiri.
For example, i bet you did not know that the TMC costs are higher than for self build.
I also bet you didnt know that for the same high cost, the end result is a product that has not utilised quality assurance standards.

Give names etc for the architects/qs who inflate building costs so as to get fees. There are systems put in place to protect the consumer such as BORAQS registration, AAK etc.
What consumers take as inflated cost is the confusion as to whether a project is low, middle or high cost. Low cost starts from 20k per m2. High cost is in the range of 40 to 50k per m2.
This confuses consumers as to the quality.
With confused consumers, irresponsible business people take this up and make it worse.
Please check out TMC page here where they say they construct at 20k per m2 but when you calculate, its even higher.

Standard Finishes (Basic House -50sqm)- Kes 20,000 per sqm

http://www.tmcafrica.com/our-services/makazi-mema

Calculate this to see for yourself
BR - 55sqm (Kes 1,500,000)
As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
a4architect.com
#32 Posted : Monday, August 05, 2013 4:21:05 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
The beauty about construction arguments is that we can all see for ourselves the final product.
We can then interrogate the budget to compare.

If anyone has done the TMC house, can they post pics for us to see?
Assuming it costed them 28k per m2, lets compare this to @pennystockers with 20k per m2.
The difference is like day and night.
Someone pays through the nose for lesser quality than selfbuild.
The difference between kes 20k which is the normal vs TMC 27k per m2 is a whooping 40% increase.
This 40% increase is without full time consultancy and ability to customise your design to your liking.

End result is a high cost of construction for a lower valued product.

Check this cost here. They say kes 20k per m2.


Check the cost here. You have to devide the cost with the area. Its 27.2k per m2.




This is what 20k per m2 can give you.Excellent aesthetic and workmanship.




As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
tom_boy
#33 Posted : Monday, August 05, 2013 6:30:04 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/20/2007
Posts: 767
a4architect.com wrote:
@clk.
There are ways to reduce construction cost eg using innovative tech eg south african moladi etc etc.
http://www.moladi.net/

http://www.frametech.co.za/

These methods are based on science and usually have consumer protection standards e.g engineering.arch.qs specifications.

TMC method is not showing any new way of reducing construction cost apart from crude shortcuts of undercutting consultants.

@pennystocker here in wazua is achieving much less than TMC with his kes 20k per m2.

http://www.wazua.co.ke/f...px?g=posts&m=415602

80% of Kenyans construct using @pennystockers method and it works.

The TMC method is faulty because it costs slightly more than self build but with risks. In self build, owner decides how to deal with risks eg by reducing them and including consultants .
In TMC method, they dont give the owner an ability to reduce their risk.
They also dont help to add on to knowledge base that can propel Kenya to South African construction innovation level.

With the TMC method at kes 27k per m2, this is too much for the service compared with the facxt that someone can still get the same for kes 20k per m2 and still manage to include consultants to reduce risk.


I think a4 has just revealed his beef with TMC. He feels TMC is undercutting consultants. This is without doing any research or presenting facts. If I construct at 25,000 per square metre, whether I use self supervision or use TMC what is the beef. Isn't the 25,000/mtre square inclusive of consultant fees and materials etc etc. Help me understand. In my opinion, there is no need to add even that 50,000shs mentioned above as all the costs are within this 25,000 per metre square.
They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
a4architect.com
#34 Posted : Monday, August 05, 2013 6:41:11 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
@tom boy.
The issue is not whether consultants are paid or not.
The issue is whether consultants give their advisory services to TMC. If they do, then TMC needs to publicly reveal which registered arch/qs/eng they are working with so that in future, the law can hold them responsible for quality assurance.
As mentioned earlier, i get several complaints monthly from people whose buildings have issues and are looking for solutions.
In such cases, construction law cant apply.The developers go Scot free. The law didnt envisage that clients will be this gullible to let developers milk them dry. When we begin to see if we can get a word from arch/eng, is when i realise the house owner has no such info. The developers simply ask the client to go to court where he will loose of course since he buys as is where is.
In developed countries, such cant happen since all know whose responsibility it is for quality assurance.

Here is TMC telling all and sundry that they have the ability to offer supervisiory services.
Quote:
TMC Project Management Services

To ensure that the contractor adheres to the agreed timelines for constructing the House within Six (6) months for Bungalows and 9(Nine) months for Maisonette after approval of the Plans and uses all reasonable care, skill and workmanship in construction of the houses.

To inspect and oversee the construction process for and on behalf of the client.

http://www.tmcafrica.com/our-services/makazi-mema


This by itselft is a contravention of construction laws in Kenya.
Only an architect/qs/eng who is registered can offer this service legally.

The info am giving here is for any new potential house owners to benefit. Customers who buy TMC products and services are less than 1% of any average architects business. TMC is therefore not competing or threatening consultancy in any way.
What i would like to see is TMC revealing to their customers exactly what they are offering to them. Customers can then choose . Legaly, the law still does not allow customers to just blindly loose their hard earned money like that.
Thats why construction industry services are regulated.

Again, the average architects clients is not the single residential building which is TMCs main target.
Am only giving a detailed opinion for those willing to think scientifically with calculations and facts. For those using emotions to make construction decisions, feel free to go ahead.
For those willing to engage in factual calculation based debate, we can discuss.Its a free world.

@Elder put up a post asking for help about TMC and am giving my honest unbiased best opinion. You can choose to ignore it or go by it. If you or TMC give me factual concrete science based argument to the contrary, i will accept it.....and move on..smile

TMC needs to understand that they cant purport to offer the public such specialised services and get away with it.
The other day we saw a Waiganjo doctor in Buru buru.
Arguments that he could be cheaper than the rest dont hold water.
As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
Litro
#35 Posted : Tuesday, August 06, 2013 8:52:03 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 7/22/2009
Posts: 120
Location: KENYA
@a4a...architects design and are the lead consultants in a construction project. A Qs does the costing of the design. My understanding is that proffessional fees are a percentage of this cost. My beef with some architects is that they will design their own dream house for their clients with minimal input from the gullible clients..you will therefore find beautiful houses in the totally wrong location. Architects are not the only guarantee as to quality as well..the construction rate for TMC is enough to pay genuine consultants. TMC are not in it for the short run i believe they have a long term plan.
Mukiri
#36 Posted : Tuesday, August 06, 2013 10:36:45 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/11/2012
Posts: 5,222
A prudent man would be well advised to listen to a4architect. The only problem I see here, is that he goes on and on and on and...... sometimes repeating himself. Yes, it shows passion, but it also comes out like he's trying to force someone into buying his views. Mbloo, you can only share your opinion, who was it that said 'Those that fight monsters should take care not to become monsters themselves..'

@a4architect, I have a few questions
1. In @Pennystocker's thread, I can't remember him talking about consulting. From what I gathered, he uploaded an architectural drawing, he was his own contractor who got lucky to get a good fundi. Please be kind enough to point out the consultations
2. What exactly are these consultations? Why are they important? How much do they, on average cost? And if they can be under-cut, yet Nairobi is still standing... how does choosing to do them translate to a saving?
3. In simple(numbered) English, please take a novice through the process of construction from when he approaches an architect, approvals etc to completion... and monies payable.

Thank you

Proverbs 19:21
tom_boy
#37 Posted : Wednesday, August 07, 2013 4:54:06 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/20/2007
Posts: 767
In order to get building approvals, an architect and structural engineer must be involved. For a4 to insinuate that TMC will use quacks or not use these professionals at all , and all this without evidence, is below par for him. Instead, let a4 advice us, as a wanjiku building for the first time, what steps I should take when dealing with a company like TMC to ensure I get a quality product.
They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
Tokyo
#38 Posted : Wednesday, August 07, 2013 5:49:53 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 10/9/2006
Posts: 1,502
TMC is employing economy of scale. What @A4 is failing to understand the company is capable of employing those full time registered professionals. What I know construction is dominated by cartels. Break away from them and cost is reduced significantly. TMC the way to go.
work to prosper
Tito44
#39 Posted : Wednesday, August 07, 2013 8:33:49 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 12/16/2008
Posts: 111
Like any serious professional, a4architect is concerned about his industry i.e. construction. He has pointed out his concerns and even said that TMC should come out clear on some of the things they are saying. What is wrong with this?

I don't know him personally but have come to realize that he is probably the only architect in this part of the world who freely shares information in the construction industry. Information that you will pay premium rates for elsewhere. Kindly visit his site http://www.a4architect.com/ to know what i am talking about. Is he the only architect on Wazua? I guess not, yet if you ask an architectural question, he will probably be the only architect that will answer you; for free, unless you require architectural plans done for you.

That said, let's not tarnish his good name for a statement that may simply not have come out the way he intended it to be. In my own understanding, he is simply concerned that TMC have not fully disclosed details.
tom_boy
#40 Posted : Wednesday, August 07, 2013 1:23:23 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/20/2007
Posts: 767
I fully agree with you @Tito44 and I commend @a4 for his good contributions on this forum. Its just that I don't see his point in this particular discussion and he needs to let us know what exactly is wrong with the TMC model without just claiming that they will not use professionals.
They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
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