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Pope Francis - Servant Leadership
Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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AlphDoti wrote:tycho wrote:@AlphDoti, I hope you realize that you haven't mentioned that you believe in the resurrection of the Christ? One thing at a time  I appreciate that you want to go straight to the other pointBut, I want this be a good discussion where if you have a question and you ask me, I answer honesty without going round it. And when you ask me, i answer honestly. I wanted us to exhaust one point firstSuch that when I see your point of view and you see my point of view, we agree and move to next point. But if you ignore points raised in my post...and you want us to go straight to another point, then it won't help us. Because if later I show you something which goes against what you already know and believed in, you'll say I didn't agree with that in the first place. You know that genuine person will say, oh yes, I see this or I didn't know that.
But if this person is a lier, he'll say "what about this one, what about that one".So I don't want to sit here and argueIf we can't scrutinize the witness, our witness the Bible together, then we'll not agree. NOTE: Remember there is no court in the world in which the judge convicts a person before interviewing him. I do not think I have been unsystematic in any way. 1. When I post, you choose how to answer. Your answers aren't coming as I'd expect them. But so far, my aim is to show that Islam tacitly denies the Christ. You have given a list of what you believe about the Christ. And I have asked about something that is integral and essential about Christ, at least to my understanding. Therefore if premise 1 holds, then I have a right to ask questions I believe to be relevant.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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symbols wrote:AlphDoti wrote:
You see, the Bible has three types of words:
1. The Words of God
2. The words of the prophets and messengers of God
3. The words of the writers or narrators
I've given some examples in my post #123.
I agree,there are those three but you have not given evidence of where and what the corruption is.On the same principle,who's to say the Quran is not corrupted. Quran has never changed since the time it was revealed. There are original copies in museums written in skin and tree barks. symbols wrote:AlphDoti wrote:
My questions are:
1. Do you now understand what Islam says about Jesus (peace be upon him)? If you think otherwise, produce evidence.
2. I gave you evidence why Jesus (pbuh) is not God. Do you agree or disagree with these evidences from your own Bible? If you disagree, does it mean there are contradictions in your Bible?
3. Do you agree that Jesus (pbuh) submit to the will of God and not His will?
4. Do you agree that Jesus Christ (pbuh) is great messenger of God and no one should call himself him unless it is him? (I think @tycho called himself Christ in one of his posts)
From your posts I understand Islams position on Jesus but find it odd that you are referring the same bible you claim to be corrupt to back up your point. I have to use your own book. If I use Quran, you'll say 'but i don't believe in it'. So I have to use your own book, and quote from some true statements which are still remaining in it. symbols wrote:Yes you have given evidence that Jesus is not God but fail to address the issue of the trinity or at the very least the previous questions I've asked. Trinity is the creation of people. Jesus never preached, no prophet preached. It was created by the Roman empire... read " Nacea creed" symbols wrote:Yes Jesus submits and professes that all must submit to the Will of God but he himself brings up God,The Father,The Son and The Holy Spirit.Are you suggesting it was a simple mistake? Yes. This is one of the insertion into the Bible. It is one of the statements of the writers. Because it contradicts some words of Jesus. symbols wrote:I believe Christ is not only a messenger of God but His Word. The Word has many meanings in the Bible.1. The Word used for Creation the UniverseIsaiah 45:21 - God says the word comes form His mouth. Isaiah 46:5 - God says you cannot equate him to anything else Quaran 112:1 - Quaran 2:117 - When God decrees something, He just says and it becomes. Genesis 1:3 - God says He creates by Word Isaiah 43:10 - God does not need any help from anyone Isaiah 44:6 - God is asking you a question, you who wants to resemble Him with somethin else Isaiah 45:5 - God says it is only Him who has done everything 2. The Word used to create human beingsQuran 3:59 - Isaiah 44:2 - The creation of Jesus in his mothers womb Quran 23:12 - Explain how God creates in the womb Quran 22:5 - See the Process of forming Luke 8:9 - The seed is the word of God. Jeremiah 32:27 - God is asking if there is anythng hard for him. Jesus himself says he is below Jesus. He says God is for all that have body. And you know Jesus had body! Mathayo 19:4 - Jesus says God created. Jesus is not saying he created. Quaran 36:8 - People are told but they don't understand 3. The Word given to prophets to preach to peopleAmos 3:7 - Deut 18:18 - God says He'll put His Word in the mouths of His Messengers Genesis 15:1 - God's word came to Abraham. Exodus 31:32 - John 5:30 - Jesus says he cannot talk until he hears from God Quran 53:2 - John 14:24 - Jesus says that word is not his but God's John 17:17 - God's word is true word 4. The Word that brings truthJohn 5:24 - When yu hear the word, you'll be saved John 8:31 - Mathayo 7:24 - Mathayo 4:1 - Mathayo 6:60 - Jesus says let's catch God's word Mathayo 15:1 - Quaran 62:2 1 Petro 1:23 - The word of God is seed of truth
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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tycho wrote:AlphDoti wrote:tycho wrote:@AlphDoti, I hope you realize that you haven't mentioned that you believe in the resurrection of the Christ? One thing at a time I appreciate that you want to go straight to the other pointBut, I want this be a good discussion where if you have a question and you ask me, I answer honesty without going round it. And when you ask me, i answer honestly. I wanted us to exhaust one point firstSuch that when I see your point of view and you see my point of view, we agree and move to next point. But if you ignore points raised in my post...and you want us to go straight to another point, then it won't help us. Because if later I show you something which goes against what you already know and believed in, you'll say I didn't agree with that in the first place. You know that genuine person will say, oh yes, I see this or I didn't know that.
But if this person is a lier, he'll say "what about this one, what about that one".So I don't want to sit here and argueIf we can't scrutinize the witness, our witness the Bible together, then we'll not agree. NOTE: Remember there is no court in the world in which the judge convicts a person before interviewing him. I do not think I have been unsystematic in any way. 1. When I post, you choose how to answer. Your answers aren't coming as I'd expect them. But so far, my aim is to show that Islam tacitly denies the Christ. You have given a list of what you believe about the Christ. And I have asked about something that is integral and essential about Christ, at least to my understanding. Therefore if premise 1 holds, then I have a right to ask questions I believe to be relevant. You've been straightforwad. I appreciate it  But I don't want us to end up in a situation where you "what about this, what about that". I will move to your next question above after you confirm below: 1. Do you now understand what Islam says about Jesus (peace be upon him)? If you think otherwise, produce evidence. 2. I gave you evidence why Jesus (pbuh) is not God. Do you agree or disagree with these evidences from your own Bible? If you disagree, does it mean there are contradictions in your Bible? 3. Do you agree that Jesus (pbuh) submit to the will of God and not His will? 4. Do you agree that Jesus Christ (pbuh) is great messenger of God and no one should call himself him unless it is him? (I think you called yourself Christ in one of his posts)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/19/2013 Posts: 2,552
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Original copies,can anyone witness to it?Just the same way I can't prove the truth of the Bible beyond faith can you prove that of the Quran? I don't mind if you use the Quran,it will enlighten me more on Islam.For you to say you are quoting the true statements from the Bible you have to disclose the original to ascertain what is and isn't true,otherwise you'll just be cherry picking to favor your argument.If God was to ask you to prove what was true or not in the bible would you be able? The concept and name trinity is the creation of people but the foundation upon which it was built came from Jesus himself.Christianity is still a monotheistic religion. You can't claim it contradicts the words of Jesus just because you don't agree with what he said.What of the Lord's prayer.Why did he again say Father?It is a consistent theme,a difference between God and Father but he doesn't claim superiority to either. When it comes to the Word you forget the most important chapter where all you've said is again reaffirmed,John chapter 1. John 1:1 Quote:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God.
1:14 Quote:
Now the Word became flesh and took up residence among us. We saw his glory – the glory of the one and only, full of grace and truth, who came from the Father.
How can the word be "with" God and "fully" be God?As you will notice there is also a change from again God and introduction of the Father.I'd really like your opinion on John Chapter 1.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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symbols wrote:Original copies,can anyone witness to it?Just the same way I can't prove the truth of the Bible beyond faith can you prove that of the Quran? I don't mind if you use the Quran,it will enlighten me more on Islam.For you to say you are quoting the true statements from the Bible you have to disclose the original to ascertain what is and isn't true,otherwise you'll just be cherry picking to favor your argument.If God was to ask you to prove what was true or not in the bible would you be able? The concept and name trinity is the creation of people but the foundation upon which it was built came from Jesus himself.Christianity is still a monotheistic religion. You can't claim it contradicts the words of Jesus just because you don't agree with what he said.What of the Lord's prayer.Why did he again say Father?It is a consistent theme,a difference between God and Father but he doesn't claim superiority to either. When it comes to the Word you forget the most important chapter where all you've said is again reaffirmed,John chapter 1. John 1:1 Quote:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God.
1:14 Quote:
Now the Word became flesh and took up residence among us. We saw his glory – the glory of the one and only, full of grace and truth, who came from the Father.
How can the word be "with" God and "fully" be God?As you will notice there is also a change from again God and introduction of the Father.I'd really like your opinion on John Chapter 1. You can easily know that the creators of Trinity interpolated this. You can easily answer this when you reflect on the reason why there are versions of Bible. Remember there is difference between version and translation. A new version of anything means there is major change. The question is: what is changing? For example look at Matthew 1:6-16 and Luke 3:21-31, both reporting the Geneology of Jesus (peace be upon him). Are you telling me the holy spirit didn't know what it told Mathew when it inspired Luke? 
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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Phew... Back to Papa...
So you come to know that Jesus Christ was one of the mightiest messengers of God.
That is why I tell you, Muslims are guided by true teachings of all prophets, including Jesus peace be upon him.
We love him, and we refer to him,
Whose teachings does the Pope follow, Jesus' teachings?
If you compare what Jesus Christ (pbuh) said, Pope does not follow most of teachings of Jesus Christ (pbuh).
Jesus Christ said we have to follow each one and every law,
Mathew 5:17 - says: everything in in the old testament, you can pick one law, a dot or jot.
Exodus 20:1-6 - says: I am the LORD thy God, ... Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Quran 1:4 - You alone we worship, you alone we ask for help.
So if a Servant of God means a person who follow the teachings of Jesus Christ (pbuh), then Pope is out.
So if he's a true Christian and he follows the teachings of Christ, then he's servant of God.
John 16:12-14 says: I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:
for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
He shall glorify me:
So Jesus said there's another messenger
of God to come and his name will be Muhammad pbuh
If he were true, if he truly believed in Jesus (pbuh), he has to believe in the last and final messenger.
Then we would say he's true servant of God.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/19/2013 Posts: 2,552
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AlphDoti wrote:
You can easily know that the creators of Trinity interpolated this. You can easily answer this when you reflect on the reason why there are versions of Bible. Remember there is difference between version and translation. A new version of anything means there is major change.
The question is: what is changing?
For example look at Matthew 1:6-16 and Luke 3:21-31, both reporting the Geneology of Jesus (peace be upon him). Are you telling me the holy spirit didn't know what it told Mathew when it inspired Luke?
Greeks don't have a word for son-in-law thus Joseph would still be considered a son and their customs wouldn't recognize the genealogy of Mary.Still shows that Christ descended from the throne of David.Their traditions are best understood by them. AlphDoti wrote:
Whose teachings does the Pope follow, Jesus' teachings?
If you compare what Jesus Christ (pbuh) said, Pope does not follow most of teachings of Jesus Christ (pbuh).
Jesus Christ said we have to follow each one and every law,
When it comes to judgment I reserve that to God.There is a difference between an institution and a church.You can't have a church without Jesus but you can have an institution without Jesus. AlphDoti wrote:
Mathew 5:17 - says: everything in in the old testament, you can pick one law, a dot or jot.
Exodus 20:1-6 - says: I am the LORD thy God, ... Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Quran 1:4 - You alone we worship, you alone we ask for help.
So if a Servant of God means a person who follow the teachings of Jesus Christ (pbuh), then Pope is out.
Why is the pope out? AlphDoti wrote:
So if he's a true Christian and he follows the teachings of Christ, then he's servant of God.
John 16:12-14 says: I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:
for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: antrd he will shew you things to come.
He shall glorify me:
So Jesus said there's another messenger
of God to come and his name will be Muhammad pbuh
If he were true, if he truly believed in Jesus (pbuh), he has to believe in the last and final messenger.
Then we would say he's true servant of God.
John 14:15-17 Quote:
14:15 “If you love me, you will obey my commandments.14:16 Then I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you forever – 14:17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot accept, because it does not see him or know him. But you know him, because he resides with you and will be in you.
Clearly he stated spirit.How then can you accept Jesus as a messenger while only selecting from the words he said. John 14:6-7 Quote:
Jesus replied,“I am the way, and the truth, and the life.No one comes to the Father except through me.14:7 If you have known me, you will know my Father too.And from now on you do know him and have seen him.”
He has declared he is the truth,how then can this be?How can we have seen the Father through Jesus?Again he has declared the Father not God.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/19/2013 Posts: 2,552
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@AlphDoti - Explain this and correct me if I'm wrong in my assumption on it: 99 Names of AllahOn the same principle,can't God be the Father,the Son and The Holy Spirit?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 1/21/2010 Posts: 6,675 Location: Nairobi
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symbols wrote:@AlphDoti - Explain this and correct me if I'm wrong in my assumption on it: 99 Names of AllahOn the same principle,can't God be the Father,the Son and The Holy Spirit? @symbols you may call God whatever gets you to bed at night! But calling God something is not the same as allocating three specific entitles of God existing at the same time.. That is to have three Gods! Did Jesus ever do anything in his own name?! Or did he always proclaim the Father?! Why do we today pray in the name of Jesus?! Heal the sick in the name of Jesus?! Drive out demons in the name of Jesus?! #DoNotBeFooled Mark 12:29
Deuteronomy 4:16
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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@AlphDoti, while you have asked significant questions, I believe they are purely red herrings, and I will ask you to forgive me for not answering them now.
This is because what Islam believes about the Christ isn't contingent on what I may be, or what I may believe about the Christ.
Furthermore, my understanding of what Islam believes about Christ, is the subject of inquiry and any acknowledgement or denial of understanding of Islam's position on Christ merely serves to confuse the discussion.
The evidence you have given to show that Christ isn't God, must be subjected to scrutiny, and the question as to whether Islam believes in the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Christ is important while considering the evidence that you have provided.
Finally, I notice that you have noted the allusion that I am the Man God, and in essence, the Christ. Your observation is right. Meaning that I don't fully agree with your question number 4. Again, this response is a consequence of the fact of resurrection of the Christ.
Thus, I ask you to kindly answer directly: Do you, or do you not believe that Christ was crucified and died, and was resurrected on the third day?
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