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NIC Bank 2012 fy results
BGL
#21 Posted : Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:42:04 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 10/11/2009
Posts: 1,223
sparkly wrote:
mibbz wrote:
asked a question in the hfck thread and nobody replied.what does deferred tax mean?


Two concepts: Current tax and Deferred tax.

Current tax - is the tax payable (or refund due)to KRA in that year, based on tax laws.

Tax laws determine profit differently from accounting principles.

Consider a bond held for trading at 100. Value of bond goes up to 110 and HF books a profit of 10. However, Tax of 3 (30%) is only paid if the bond is actually sold. So no current tax.

Deferred tax - tax payable or recoverable in future.

In the example above HF has an asset of 110 in balance sheet. They know if the sell it they will pay tax on the 10 profit they already booked.

So they will record the tax they are likely to pay once they sell the asset as deferred tax liability in their balance sheet.

When they actually sell the bond, they will move the tax of 3 from balance sheet to profit and loss. Thats how the P&L is affected.

Note: A simplified example.


Thanks @sparkly
So, would i be right if i say its tax payable in the future as a result of past transactions BUT which must be paid at some point. Then its a convenient way of making shareholders happy when things are tough.

Perhaps i can draw an analogy with deferral that we are accustomed to (the shuttle diplomacy watermelon was pursuing).
History will not remember you for your IQ. It will remember you for what you did. “Genius is 1 percent inspiration, 99 percent perspiration.” Thomas Edison
VituVingiSana
#22 Posted : Thursday, February 21, 2013 3:31:06 AM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,129
Location: Nairobi
@BGL - Well, a DTA is 'tax asset' that can be used to offset paying taxes [in cash]...
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
mkonomtupu
#23 Posted : Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:36:50 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 2/10/2010
Posts: 1,001
Location: River Road
mwekez@ji wrote:
EPS - KES 6.03
NBV - KES 27.55

at the current share price of KES 45.50

P/E - 7.55x
P/B - 1.65x

There is some headroom for the share price


Good set of resultsApplause Applause Applause even though the capital gains so far look tempting I keep holding see what they will do with the cash from the rights issue
mibbz
#24 Posted : Thursday, February 21, 2013 10:50:46 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/18/2011
Posts: 448
BGL wrote:
sparkly wrote:
mibbz wrote:
asked a question in the hfck thread and nobody replied.what does deferred tax mean?


Two concepts: Current tax and Deferred tax.

Current tax - is the tax payable (or refund due)to KRA in that year, based on tax laws.

Tax laws determine profit differently from accounting principles.

Consider a bond held for trading at 100. Value of bond goes up to 110 and HF books a profit of 10. However, Tax of 3 (30%) is only paid if the bond is actually sold. So no current tax.

Deferred tax - tax payable or recoverable in future.

In the example above HF has an asset of 110 in balance sheet. They know if the sell it they will pay tax on the 10 profit they already booked.

So they will record the tax they are likely to pay once they sell the asset as deferred tax liability in their balance sheet.

When they actually sell the bond, they will move the tax of 3 from balance sheet to profit and loss. Thats how the P&L is affected.

Note: A simplified example.


Thanks @sparkly
So, would i be right if i say its tax payable in the future as a result of past transactions BUT which must be paid at some point. Then its a convenient way of making shareholders happy when things are tough.

Perhaps i can draw an analogy with deferral that we are accustomed to (the shuttle diplomacy watermelon was pursuing).


@sparly thanks a lot,at least i understand it now.isn't it possible to manipulate books in accounting to suit a specific need,i find this field very dynamic and the smarter accountants can hide potential bombshells in many places....
mibbz
#25 Posted : Thursday, February 21, 2013 10:52:54 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/18/2011
Posts: 448
Think ION why are 3 of the top 5 stocks in the red today banks? kwani HFCK and NIC have spooked the market that much?
dunkang
#26 Posted : Thursday, February 21, 2013 11:02:46 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/2/2011
Posts: 4,818
Location: -1.2107, 36.8831
download the FY2012 report here
Receive with simplicity everything that happens to you.” ― Rashi

Cde Monomotapa
#27 Posted : Thursday, February 21, 2013 11:03:12 AM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/13/2011
Posts: 5,964
These are very stable earnings & I suppose when the Rights capital is deployed it should be even better, but that has lead time atleast 1 year?
the deal
#28 Posted : Thursday, February 21, 2013 11:37:21 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,534
Location: Windhoek/Nairobbery
Another rights issue coming
mwekez@ji
#29 Posted : Thursday, February 21, 2013 11:57:58 AM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 5/31/2011
Posts: 5,121
the deal wrote:
Another rights issue coming


Not soon. If you think contrary, substantiate
the deal
#30 Posted : Thursday, February 21, 2013 1:23:45 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,534
Location: Windhoek/Nairobbery
mwekez@ji wrote:
the deal wrote:
Another rights issue coming


Not soon. If you think contrary, substantiate

New CBK prudetial guidelines effective 1 January 2013.

Core capital/RWA--->10.5% vs NIC Bank's 15.6%

Total capital/RWA--->14.5% vs NIC Banks 16.4%

Very little head room to expand balance sheet.
mwekez@ji
#31 Posted : Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:10:01 PM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 5/31/2011
Posts: 5,121
the deal wrote:
mwekez@ji wrote:
the deal wrote:
Another rights issue coming


Not soon. If you think contrary, substantiate

New CBK prudetial guidelines effective 1 January 2013.

Core capital/RWA--->10.5% vs NIC Bank's 15.6%

Total capital/RWA--->14.5% vs NIC Banks 16.4%

Very little head room to expand balance sheet.


its,

Core capital/RWA---> 8% plus 2.5% Capital Conservation Buffer

Total capital/RWA---> 12% plus 2.5% Capital Conservation Buffer

Banks have been given 24 months to meet the 2.5% Capital Conservation Buffer (either via retained earnings or other capital raising method).

What is more, the NIC's core capital/RWA ratio already has enough headroom. Total capital/RWA has some room and can be improved further via Tier I or via Tier II capital (e.g debt)
.
VituVingiSana
#32 Posted : Thursday, February 21, 2013 3:17:52 PM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,129
Location: Nairobi
mwekez@ji wrote:
the deal wrote:
mwekez@ji wrote:
the deal wrote:
Another rights issue coming


Not soon. If you think contrary, substantiate

New CBK prudetial guidelines effective 1 January 2013.

Core capital/RWA--->10.5% vs NIC Bank's 15.6%

Total capital/RWA--->14.5% vs NIC Banks 16.4%

Very little head room to expand balance sheet.


its,

Core capital/RWA---> 8% plus 2.5% Capital Conservation Buffer

Total capital/RWA---> 12% plus 2.5% Capital Conservation Buffer

Banks have been given 24 months to meet the 2.5% Capital Conservation Buffer (either via retained earnings or other capital raising method).

What is more, the NIC's core capital/RWA ratio already has enough headroom. Total capital/RWA has some room and can be improved further via Tier I or via Tier II capital (e.g debt)
.
Which means retained profits will add to the Core Capital over the next 2 years.
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
the deal
#33 Posted : Thursday, February 21, 2013 3:28:46 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,534
Location: Windhoek/Nairobbery
VituVingiSana wrote:
mwekez@ji wrote:
the deal wrote:
mwekez@ji wrote:
the deal wrote:
Another rights issue coming


Not soon. If you think contrary, substantiate

New CBK prudetial guidelines effective 1 January 2013.

Core capital/RWA--->10.5% vs NIC Bank's 15.6%

Total capital/RWA--->14.5% vs NIC Banks 16.4%

Very little head room to expand balance sheet.


its,

Core capital/RWA---> 8% plus 2.5% Capital Conservation Buffer

Total capital/RWA---> 12% plus 2.5% Capital Conservation Buffer

Banks have been given 24 months to meet the 2.5% Capital Conservation Buffer (either via retained earnings or other capital raising method).

What is more, the NIC's core capital/RWA ratio already has enough headroom. Total capital/RWA has some room and can be improved further via Tier I or via Tier II capital (e.g debt)
.
Which means retained profits will add to the Core Capital over the next 2 years.

It depends at what rate they grow their Total Risk Weighted assets (TRWA), since they don't do mortgages to have a weighting of 0.5 then TRWA could grow by double digits, overall carting a huge chunk of PAT into the retained earnings category affects the dividend payout ratio, so a rights issue is more appropriate.
mwekez@ji
#34 Posted : Thursday, February 21, 2013 3:52:47 PM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 5/31/2011
Posts: 5,121
the deal wrote:
VituVingiSana wrote:
mwekez@ji wrote:
the deal wrote:
mwekez@ji wrote:
the deal wrote:
Another rights issue coming


Not soon. If you think contrary, substantiate

New CBK prudetial guidelines effective 1 January 2013.

Core capital/RWA--->10.5% vs NIC Bank's 15.6%

Total capital/RWA--->14.5% vs NIC Banks 16.4%

Very little head room to expand balance sheet.


its,

Core capital/RWA---> 8% plus 2.5% Capital Conservation Buffer

Total capital/RWA---> 12% plus 2.5% Capital Conservation Buffer

Banks have been given 24 months to meet the 2.5% Capital Conservation Buffer (either via retained earnings or other capital raising method).

What is more, the NIC's core capital/RWA ratio already has enough headroom. Total capital/RWA has some room and can be improved further via Tier I or via Tier II capital (e.g debt)
.
Which means retained profits will add to the Core Capital over the next 2 years.

It depends at what rate they grow their Total Risk Weighted assets (TRWA), since they don't do mortgages to have a weighting of 0.5 then TRWA could grow by double digits, overall carting a huge chunk of PAT into the retained earnings category affects the dividend payout ratio, so a rights issue is more appropriate.


Investors in NIC are ok with high retention ratio. They are after value & growth in the company and consequently stock capital gains
sparkly
#35 Posted : Thursday, February 21, 2013 4:15:09 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/23/2009
Posts: 8,083
Location: Enk are Nyirobi
mibbz wrote:
BGL wrote:
sparkly wrote:
mibbz wrote:
asked a question in the hfck thread and nobody replied.what does deferred tax mean?


Two concepts: Current tax and Deferred tax.

Current tax - is the tax payable (or refund due)to KRA in that year, based on tax laws.

Tax laws determine profit differently from accounting principles.

Consider a bond held for trading at 100. Value of bond goes up to 110 and HF books a profit of 10. However, Tax of 3 (30%) is only paid if the bond is actually sold. So no current tax.

Deferred tax - tax payable or recoverable in future.

In the example above HF has an asset of 110 in balance sheet. They know if the sell it they will pay tax on the 10 profit they already booked.

So they will record the tax they are likely to pay once they sell the asset as deferred tax liability in their balance sheet.

When they actually sell the bond, they will move the tax of 3 from balance sheet to profit and loss. Thats how the P&L is affected.

Note: A simplified example.


Thanks @sparkly
So, would i be right if i say its tax payable in the future as a result of past transactions BUT which must be paid at some point. Then its a convenient way of making shareholders happy when things are tough.

Perhaps i can draw an analogy with deferral that we are accustomed to (the shuttle diplomacy watermelon was pursuing).


@sparly thanks a lot,at least i understand it now.isn't it possible to manipulate books in accounting to suit a specific need,i find this field very dynamic and the smarter accountants can hide potential bombshells in many places....


True, deferred tax is highly subjective when dealing with complex issues like business reorganisations, revaluations of investments and tax losses carried forward. I see creative accounting by KPMG (belief they are the auditors).

KBS has been active for past 2-3 years. Why recognise tne asset now, and incidentally increase the PAT. Thats why Buffet looks at the cash return.
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