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'Brave new world' - conversation on postmodern cosmology.
tycho
#61 Posted : Monday, February 11, 2013 11:19:22 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
@Wakanyugi, lets think about Einstein's statement on time.

Time exists to prevent uncontrollable events.

That is, time is a control mechanism, in a system with many events.

And if time is a control, then it is a force. Hence energy.

You have done well to mention biological functions, do they exist?

They definitely exist. That is why even though conceptually we do not believe in Gravity, we wouldn't dare to throw ourselves over a cliff.

I don't know, have you practiced meditation by 'following the breath'? In it you let the body breath on its own volition. This breath is timed. In this state of being, one can feel the inner organs moving at the same rate.

If you haven't had this experience, then you'd definitely have a hard time knowing how the body deals with time.

And let me ask, why should the body deal with spatial control and fail to deal with time?

Consider this: If time doesn't exist, then there can be no relativity.

So I ask myself, why would a person construct an argument on premises that don't exist to prove that something else doesn't exist?

Surely, this has been the predicament of Man for so long!

Religion without science, is falsehood, and neither is the converse true!

We have been living under false premises. We are living in a false city. Babylon.

Let Man God, set it ablaze!
ChessMaster
#62 Posted : Monday, February 11, 2013 12:52:16 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/23/2009
Posts: 1,626
And if time is a control,then it is a force.Hence energy!
Uncertainty is certain.Let go
digitek1
#63 Posted : Monday, February 11, 2013 1:08:11 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 2/3/2010
Posts: 1,797
Location: Kenya
tycho wrote:
ChessMaster wrote:
tycho wrote:
ChessMaster wrote:
tycho wrote:
ChessMaster wrote:
tycho wrote:
ChessMaster wrote:
Does that mean time is a derivative of energy not energy?

What is Man God in terms of identity and beyond?


A derivative of energy is energy. But conceptually we say, a form of energy.

There's 'nothing' beyond identity. Only action according to the laws. Being. Ever being.


Seems you know. Now just confirm,how important is consciousness in Man God?


Consciousness is of vital importance. Another way of looking at it is 'Presence', in ultimate being.


Explain 'Presence'.To me consciousness is everything and is what defines Man God


It's not just about consciousness, like in awareness of ultimate being, but also emotiveness, or worship.

This is the meaning of presence.


We are in agreement when it comes to Man God.I think that knowledge is my greatest discovery.


I am very glad and honored to hear this. You are most welcome to nobility!

This, is Revolution.


Sorry to barge in...Exactly what is revolutionary here?
Scholars have known about the apotheosis of man for eons.Shame on you Even the creationist admit God made man in his own image and gave him dominion over earth..so basically a co creator with him aka 'mangod'smile
And what is this nobility, who are its leaders
I may be wrong..but then I could be right
tycho
#64 Posted : Monday, February 11, 2013 1:34:55 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Good question digitek! And in fact, I am asking myself, if indeed you are Man God; why aren't you rejoicing when Man God is everyone?

This to me, is Revolution. It is a radical change in how we live.

Why is Man God in need of a leader? Man God is free!

Man God is not a club, it is being. It is authenticity.

Surely, if you are Man God, you should be speaking from the throne. Are you? If you are, why are you asking about your nobility?

Obviously, you weren't aware of this fact when you came!

That, to me, is Revolution.

ChessMaster
#65 Posted : Monday, February 11, 2013 1:44:09 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/23/2009
Posts: 1,626
tycho wrote:
Good question digitek! And in fact, I am asking myself, if indeed you are Man God; why aren't you rejoicing when Man God is everyone?

This to me, is Revolution. It is a radical change in how we live.

Why is Man God in need of a leader? Man God is free!

Man God is not a club, it is being. It is authenticity.

Surely, if you are Man God, you should be speaking from the throne. Are you? If you are, why are you asking about your nobility?

Obviously, you weren't aware of this fact when you came!

That, to me, is Revolution.



Applause Applause Applause

I don't think I need to say more.
Uncertainty is certain.Let go
Wakanyugi
#66 Posted : Monday, February 11, 2013 2:41:10 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,634
@Tycho; You still offer no proof to rebut my theses. However you raise many interesting points. Allow me to pick and chose:

"That is, time is a control mechanism, in a system with many events.

And if time is a control, then it is a force. Hence energy."


Pray tell, what exactly does time control? Time is an illusion, pure and simple. If time is an instrument, it is 'our' instrument and exists only because we do. Do you think animals and trees experience time the way we do? I doubt it.

And you lose me when you say that 'Force' = Energy.

I think you are pressing the word 'force' into a service for which it is unsuited (force as in 'to push', therefore expending energy). There are many 'forces' that have have no energy equivalent. Moral force; force of argument' for instance, are these energy?

"I don't know, have you practiced meditation by 'following the breath'?"

No. So I am afraid I can't speak to this.

"And let me ask, why should the body deal with spatial control and fail to deal with time?"

The body deals with both space and time illusions. My point was evolution has allocated many bodily instruments to deal with space but seemingly none to time. I think evolution knows how to conserve effort.

"Consider this: If time doesn't exist, then there can be no relativity."

Exactly. There is no relativity. Only unity. Scientists have long posited that the laws of physics cease to exist in a black hole singularity. Well, we live in one. Right here.

"So I ask myself, why would a person construct an argument on premises that don't exist to prove that something else doesn't exist?"

How would you prefer that I do it?

I still await your proof that time and space exist. Otherwise we can move on to more productive pursuits.
"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
digitek1
#67 Posted : Monday, February 11, 2013 2:45:42 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 2/3/2010
Posts: 1,797
Location: Kenya
nobility implies that there are others who are serfs, nobility is is for the few. We cant all be kings.Even in Gods kingdom there is hierarchy.
I never claimed to be a mangod, you did. God is ultimately the ulitimate. we can be like him ..its an evolutionary process..but we cannnot be him at the same time and be man. His spirit can dwell in us as but we cannot be man and God at the same time . it has been tried many times since babel

I may be wrong..but then I could be right
ChessMaster
#68 Posted : Monday, February 11, 2013 2:54:16 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/23/2009
Posts: 1,626
digitek1 wrote:
nobility implies that there are others who are serfs, nobility is is for the few. We cant all be kings.Even in Gods kingdom there is hierarchy.
I never claimed to be a mangod, you did. God is ultimately the ulitimate. we can be like him ..its an evolutionary process..but we cannnot be him at the same time and be man. His spirit can dwell in us as but we cannot be man and God at the same time . it has been tried many times since babel



Everyone is a serf.Nobility in this sense is the opportunity to serve.Its not about hierarchy,its about everyone being given an opportunity.We can never be like God,through evolution or any other means.He reigns supreme,but He can accept us as children,Man God. It's not by action you become a Man God but by faith in God.Its a reward.Basically you have to understand,tycho has come to the realization of what God promises us through Jesus.
Uncertainty is certain.Let go
Much Know
#69 Posted : Monday, February 11, 2013 3:16:45 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 3,548
May i propose the following thought experiment before we ridicule scientist, the best including Einstein, Neils Bohr, Newton, Kopler have some interesting positions on reality, God, light e.t.c, they are not enemies of religion.
1. Shroedingers Cat

Please also study Einsteins exchange with Niels Bohr about "God does not play dice"..google it.. at the 1927 Solvay conference where many of the scientific dimensions of philosophy have remained to date.

I will then lead you to a video from a foremost scientist who can explain how you can be anyone, anywhere, at anytime, dead or alive, if you like "a scientific connection to God" then perhaps pursue your enlightenment from a more friendly stance to conventional science rather than pseudoscience.

Note, God is truth, so do not fear truth, science is the best truth we have so far, my best perception of God is "I AM WHO I AM", so putting God "in a box" whether a particular religion, or your own world view is neither here nor there, God and religion are two different things. Baruch Spinoza, an excellent philosopher on Ethics and spirituality is another good one to study.
A New Kenya
ChessMaster
#70 Posted : Monday, February 11, 2013 4:02:48 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/23/2009
Posts: 1,626
Much Know wrote:
May i propose the following thought experiment before we ridicule scientist, the best including Einstein, Neils Bohr, Newton, Kopler have some interesting positions on reality, God, light e.t.c, they are not enemies of religion.
1. Shroedingers Cat

Please also study Einsteins exchange with Niels Bohr about "God does not play dice"..google it.. at the 1927 Solvay conference where many of the scientific dimensions of philosophy have remained to date.

I will then lead you to a video from a foremost scientist who can explain how you can be anyone, anywhere, at anytime, dead or alive, if you like "a scientific connection to God" then perhaps pursue your enlightenment from a more friendly stance to conventional science rather than pseudoscience.

Note, God is truth, so do not fear truth, science is the best truth we have so far, my best perception of God is "I AM WHO I AM", so putting God "in a box" whether a particular religion, or your own world view is neither here nor there, God and religion are two different things. Baruch Spinoza, an excellent philosopher on Ethics and spirituality is another good one to study.


All science is pseudoscience before it is proven. Religion and science are both looking for truth but with different methods. I agree God and religion are two different things.Now,my question is because I'm a bit lost,what is your point?We shouldn't assume we know or we should give science its due respect or...
Uncertainty is certain.Let go
tycho
#71 Posted : Monday, February 11, 2013 4:04:50 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
@Much Know, I am conversant with the references you have given. And even, I have great regard for the people you have mentioned, what your argument really is.

You say Science can connect Man to God, from an apparatus in some Lab. Where there's 'Conventional' science.

Then in the same breath you imply that religion is about God.

But then you say religion and science are at variance. Is that in order?

You have put your case as if we are now disregarding the great scientists. But this is far from true!

This is not about science per se, it is about Man being conscious of his identity with God even outside the lab. And still have an integrated life.

How will you justify the possibility of people being internally divided?

If there's no integration, how will we protect the 'I'.

If you understand the case of Schroedinger's cat, why do you look at the history and evolution of science so casually?

Please remember that we can only have a Grand Unifying Theory, if we integrate Man!
tycho
#72 Posted : Monday, February 11, 2013 4:37:53 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
@Wakanyugi, I suspect that you have failed to see my proof because of disparity in method of showing proof.

Once again let me use your argument:

You say space and time don't exist, then you boldly state that evolution has been responding to these illusion.

If evolution is real, then time must be real!

But because time is not real, then there is no evolution, and even singularity will not exist.

You like mentioning Einstein, now what does he say about thinking about how we think?

Now, if space and time don't exist, how can a proof exist? Certainly a proof implies time!

So my question is, if space and time don't exist, how can you have a philosophy that demands proof?
ChessMaster
#73 Posted : Monday, February 11, 2013 4:51:43 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/23/2009
Posts: 1,626
Hahaha....to prove time doesn't exist is to prove yourself wrong.Interesting,a self defeating argument.
Uncertainty is certain.Let go
tycho
#74 Posted : Monday, February 11, 2013 4:56:22 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
digitek1 wrote:
nobility implies that there are others who are serfs, nobility is is for the few. We cant all be kings.Even in Gods kingdom there is hierarchy.
I never claimed to be a mangod, you did. God is ultimately the ulitimate. we can be like him ..its an evolutionary process..but we cannnot be him at the same time and be man. His spirit can dwell in us as but we cannot be man and God at the same time . it has been tried many times since babel



Digitek, are you implying that words have fixed meaning?

Or that ideas about heaven don't evolve? That is, humans do not change their understanding, even of a paragraph in a book?

You seem to operate from such a mind!

And then I am surprised that all of a sudden that Man and God cannot be in identity now. First, this is contrary to most Scripture, except perhaps of religious atheism!

So, if you are relying on tradition for your argument, which is it?

Ask yourself, if there's going to be a hierarchy in heaven, does it mean that there's also punishment in heaven? Will there be envy?

Your ideas on hierarchy imply such a belief!

Otherwise if the hierarchy exists without comparing oneself to the other, then there's no hierarchy!

So, what happened in Babel? And what is the ultimate message of theistic belief?
Impunity
#75 Posted : Monday, February 11, 2013 4:56:54 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/2/2009
Posts: 26,328
Location: Masada
ChessMaster wrote:
Hahaha....to prove time doesn't exist is to prove yourself wrong.Interesting,a self defeating argument.


What do we have beyond space?What exist out of space?

d'oh! d'oh!
Portfolio: Sold
You know you've made it when you get a parking space for your yatcht.

ChessMaster
#76 Posted : Monday, February 11, 2013 5:05:06 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/23/2009
Posts: 1,626
Impunity wrote:
ChessMaster wrote:
Hahaha....to prove time doesn't exist is to prove yourself wrong.Interesting,a self defeating argument.


What do we have beyond space?What exist out of space?

d'oh! d'oh!


What is the opposite of life? Nonexistence.
Uncertainty is certain.Let go
akowally
#77 Posted : Monday, February 11, 2013 5:33:38 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 5/20/2008
Posts: 1,126
Location: Nairobi
God created the earth and all in it.

I hope that makes sense in this sophisticated conversation.
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tycho
#78 Posted : Monday, February 11, 2013 8:14:28 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
akowally wrote:
God created the earth and all in it.

I hope that makes sense in this sophisticated conversation.


Yes. It does.

And my hope is that the statement isn't an obstacle to having an integrated life that is also at harmony with science.
Wakanyugi
#79 Posted : Monday, February 11, 2013 11:18:59 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,634
Dear Tycho,

I suggest we move on to other questions. It seems we are in parallel Universes.

Here is what I said:

Time is not real; does not exist. Therefore space does not exist. Therefore the Universe does not exist. Therefore relativity does not exist. Therefore YOU don't exist.

In other words - the above have no reality except that which (observer) gives them. They are all illusions.

The only thing that exists is 'UNITY' - call it a singularity if you like. Einstein and others called it 'Observer.'

Here is what I DID NOT say:

I make no value judgement on our creations. We have created illusions and called them time, space, Tycho, Chessmaster...etc, etc. This does not mean they are meaningless or wrong or of less value. In UNITY there is nothing to contrast them with anyway.

But they are still illusions, which we create for very specific purposes.

For time, in my opinion, the most important purpose of this illusion is to help us operate in a 'strange' 4 dimensional reality. One that is not innate to our/my/your nature at all.

And NOW, I REST my case.


"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
Wakanyugi
#80 Posted : Monday, February 11, 2013 11:28:22 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,634
Impunity wrote:


What do we have beyond space?What exist out of space?

d'oh! d'oh!


@Impunity; Unfortunately philosophy is not a democracy. There are some questions that are simply not allowed and yours is one of them smile

Unless we change the definition of Universe - as comprising all of space etc - nothing can exist outside of space.

Not even 'nothing.'

Even a Multiverse is simply a 'more spacious' Universe.
"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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