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On knowledge, wisdom, speech, and action.
tycho
#1 Posted : Saturday, December 29, 2012 6:59:00 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
The more I search for truth, the more I realize that things aren't what I've been told they are; and neither are they what I think.

Knowledge is nothing but manipulating the uncertain, that is why it is power, for ends of our desires and imagination.

Wisdom is trying to nourish and preserve and respect the ways of nature.

Speech, is the expression of power; casting a spell on others and things to conform to the desire of our imaginations.

Action, is a step of faith, to consummate our power.

But deep inside, there's coldness, and darkness, hunger, savagery and loneliness gnawing.

Beauty is the promise of healing. The flower, the smile, the melody, the saviour, the other.

Perfection is surrender, deep silence, peace and rest. Being nature itself.
Kratos
#2 Posted : Saturday, December 29, 2012 8:56:30 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 1,694
tycho wrote:
The more I search for truth, the more I realize that things aren't what I've been told they are; and neither are they what I think.

Knowledge is nothing but manipulating the uncertain, that is why it is power, for ends of our desires and imagination.

Wisdom is trying to nourish and preserve and respect the ways of nature.

Speech, is the expression of power; casting a spell on others and things to conform to the desire of our imaginations.

Action, is a step of faith, to consummate our power.

But deep inside, there's coldness, and darkness, hunger, savagery and loneliness gnawing.

Beauty is the promise of healing. The flower, the smile, the melody, the saviour, the other.

Perfection is surrender, deep silence, peace and rest. Being nature itself.


I like your deep thought process but many a time you loose me in what you're conveying. Keep it simple for some of us...smile

C&P
Quote:
A message has NOT been communicated unless it is understood by the receiver (decoded). How do you know it has been properly received? By two-way communication or feedback. This feedback tells the sender that the receiver understood the message, its level of importance, and what must be done with it. Communication is an exchange, not just a give, as all parties must participate to complete the information exchange.

“People will believe a big lie sooner than a little one, and if you repeat it frequently enough, people will sooner or later believe it.” ― Walter C. Langer
simonkabz
#3 Posted : Saturday, December 29, 2012 9:31:09 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/2/2007
Posts: 8,776
Location: Cameroon
tycho wrote:
The more I search for truth, the more I realize that things aren't what I've been told they are; and neither are they what I think.

Knowledge is nothing but manipulating the uncertain, that is why it is power, for ends of our desires and imagination.

Wisdom is trying to nourish and preserve and respect the ways of nature.

Speech, is the expression of power; casting a spell on others and things to conform to the desire of our imaginations.

Action, is a step of faith, to consummate our power.

But deep inside, there's coldness, and darkness, hunger, savagery and loneliness gnawing.

Beauty is the promise of healing. The flower, the smile, the melody, the saviour, the other.

Perfection is surrender, deep silence, peace and rest. Being nature itself.


Kamata panadol mbili kwa kufikiria sana bwana.
TULIA.........UFUNZWE!
tycho
#4 Posted : Sunday, December 30, 2012 12:15:56 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
@Kratos, thank you for your response. To understand the ant you must focus on the colony. That is, for us to understand an individual's content or action, we must understand the overall objective, relative position and role.

Humanity is organized in superorganisms called societies, and these superorganisms, like colonies, experience changes from both within and without and every once in a while changes in structure and behavior are necessary if the species is to survive.

Now is such a time when everything has to be reconsidered.

I am trying to play the role of setting the ideological and philosophical grounds of a new colony.

Everything is coming fast and furious and a post is a snapshot of a stimulus and a response at the same time.

So 3 posts are six variables to be processed. Understanding doesn't come easy. I hope you get my drift.

@Simon, fanatics and non fanatics have some work to do, and I am handling my tasks in comfortable stride. I am actually enjoying.
ChessMaster
#5 Posted : Sunday, December 30, 2012 4:18:36 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/23/2009
Posts: 1,626
How I had missed such posts.Music to my ears and comfort to my soul.Seems tycho we were of the same thought.

Fear of the unknown stands before man and there only two choices: face it or deny it. To face it is to learn humility and submit to truth.Truth sheds a light on the seed of knowledge which is nurtured by understanding to bring forth wisdom.

The denial of fear takes two directions: emotional and physical all working to distract you from facing the truth. Emotional denial manifests in the form of pride and anger to compensate for feeling powerless and helpless before uncertainty over ourselves,our environment and other people. With anger comes false sense of power and control and with pride comes delusion of superiority.Both leading to destruction and never attaining peace.

Physical distractions drives our pursuit of desires.From greed,lust,gluttony,envy...day in day out to quench our desires and distract us for the day to pacify us for another moment.But the emptiness is never filled or the desire ever quenched for only truth can set you free.For the darkness of fear fades before the light of truth.There is nothing to fear but fear itself.
Uncertainty is certain.Let go
josiah33
#6 Posted : Sunday, December 30, 2012 8:32:22 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 1,777
Well! some lesson in the greek language is not bad once in awhile.
quicksand
#7 Posted : Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:32:16 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/5/2010
Posts: 2,061
Location: Nairobi
I am with @kratos on this one. Not so long ago, Catholic mass was read in Latin the world over. I hear Latin is a beautiful language. Guess why they stopped? Because by reading in Latin it is the delivery that got the focus and not the message. The word was lost on the flock.
Knowledge is information and skill via experience and education, speech is the ability to express thoughts and feelings; action is simply to do something! Blinking is an action, so is farting. There are things that don't need deeper meaning, they function perfectly as they are.
Vocabulary is one thing, and everyone should learn a few every so often, then there is obfuscation, which is pointless, even when no malice is intended.
ChessMaster
#8 Posted : Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:31:49 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/23/2009
Posts: 1,626
Einstein: Make things as simple as possible but not simpler.Let me explain for tycho and probably myself starting with @kratos definition of communication. Communication also needs the involved parties to share a common point of reference otherwise it becomes impossible.For example,explaining what a web page is to a person with no concept of a computer,the internet or electricity is almost futile.

But then again those few lines are the filtered results of hours of deep thought so it might not be only an issue with perspective or reference.

@quicksand - This one I have to disagree.There is nothing as important in this world as knowledge and wisdom.It governs EVERYTHING you do and your speech and actions,as tycho correctly put it,are direct result of the faith you have in that knowledge/wisdom.Let me give a direct wazuan example.Every investment we discuss and pursue is a direct reaction to the knowledge and information we hold.So if your knowledge is inaccurate,incomplete or flawed so follows your investments. The question thus remains,how do you protect yourself from that if you don't seek deeper meaning and understanding on knowledge and wisdom.
Uncertainty is certain.Let go
quicksand
#9 Posted : Sunday, December 30, 2012 11:57:27 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/5/2010
Posts: 2,061
Location: Nairobi
ChessMaster wrote:
Einstein: Make things as simple as possible but not simpler.Let me explain for tycho and probably myself starting with @kratos definition of communication. Communication also needs the involved parties to share a common point of reference otherwise it becomes impossible.For example,explaining what a web page is to a person with no concept of a computer,the internet or electricity is almost futile.

But then again those few lines are the filtered results of hours of deep thought so it might not be only an issue with perspective or reference.

@quicksand - This one I have to disagree.There is nothing as important in this world as knowledge and wisdom.It governs EVERYTHING you do and your speech and actions,as tycho correctly put it,are direct result of the faith you have in that knowledge/wisdom.Let me give a direct wazuan example.Every investment we discuss and pursue is a direct reaction to the knowledge and information we hold.So if your knowledge is inaccurate,incomplete or flawed so follows your investments. The question thus remains,how do you protect yourself from that if you don't seek deeper meaning and understanding on knowledge and wisdom.

I never said knowledge isn't important. .what we are disagreeing on are definitions, not effects. As far as definitions go, I prefer simple ones. Lots of people know what knowledge is, and what to do with it, without needing this expansive definition;
Quote:
Knowledge is nothing but manipulating the uncertain, that is why it is power, for ends of our desires and imagination.
. Knowledge can't be passive? And isn't coverage by knowledge of a domain remove uncertainty within the parameters of the subject matter covered? Talk of chasing your own tail. ..
.
.
.
Quote:
Speech, is the expression of power; casting a spell on others and things to conform to the desire of our imaginations.
...casting a spell? really? may be I want to simply pass on information or news to another person, via speech, for their consumption,..without needing to bend them to my will or imagination, or do you suppose such a thing is impossible?
Here is another one. ..explain to me the action of swinging my legs from the sofa to the floor in the context of the quoted phrase below ..
Quote:
Action, is a step of faith, to consummate our power.

This. ..
Quote:
Beauty is the promise of healing. The flower, the smile, the melody, the saviour, the other.
...belongs in poetry. Poetry is not necessarily the same as truth.
My point being all this stuff is grossly garnished, in the process the true taste and essence of the morsel lost, replaced by something cloying, artificial and overpowering.
Everyone knows what mud is. This is what Sheldon Cooper of Big Bang Theory called it during an ego trip. Particulate soil in colloidal suspension.
Dont caricature yourself complicating simple things.
ChessMaster
#10 Posted : Sunday, December 30, 2012 1:26:51 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/23/2009
Posts: 1,626
I was talking about the study of knowledge or understanding of the nature of knowledge.It might sound like a trivial issue but I don't think it is. I now understand the point you are trying to put across.We should keep things simple.Let me use your Sheldon example. In one context its sufficient to just call it mud but in another context "Particulate soil in colloidal suspension".I think its the latter in this case because I see the sense and depth of tycho's words on a physical and spiritual level.
Uncertainty is certain.Let go
tycho
#11 Posted : Sunday, December 30, 2012 8:39:37 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
josiah33 wrote:
Well! some lesson in the greek language is not bad once in awhile.


You too, Josiah?

Okay, @quicksand, the whole of the initial post is also a poem. And yes, a poem, or even a statement isn't always true. I'd say that also a statement is made because it truth isn't so obvious, else, it wouldn't be made at all!

For a moment I was convinced that my style of expression was unnecessarily ponderous or difficult, but with the above objections I realize that the problem is one of the spirit of our time more than anything else.

The clamor for simplicity has gone beyond its limit now it has become simplicism.

Ockham's razor like any other razor cannot be used to cut everything, more so, to cut into linguistic expression. The finite words in a language are to be used to create an infinite world, and this can only be done by adding complexity. Even Diogenes needed Alexander's world to be.

The arguments made for the obviousness of knowledge are deficient and false. Let me begin by reminding you that even Scientific laws are just averages, or approximations. Anything is possible, so even swinging your legs with certainty and not flying off is because the gravitational conditions that dominate in space are not dominant in your living room. But it doesn't have to be that way all the time! And you cannot determine when and how these conditions will change. Hence the need for faith.

A word is a symbol. And any symbol signifies something. Form goes with matter. Form without matter has no meaning and is insignificant, so every word is indeed, a spell.

Beauty entails poetry; what's wrong with that? In fact, poetry was my intention!

Not all criticism is just. And so far the criticism offered here is unjust. And not just that, it is both diffident and contemptuous, and full of inferiority complex, signs of the bourgeois, the mass man; a.k.a 'Middle class'.
tycho
#12 Posted : Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:02:56 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
@ChessMaster, 'There's nothing to fear but fear itself'.

'Fear itself' is the essence of being. It is the bedrock, the prime mover unmoved. It is always there whenever we try to be. It is the source of all being.

We cannot be indifferent to it. Therefore we must name it. Yet we cannot really name it. 'The Tao that can be named is not the Tao'.

In what way does a boson exist? We can only make 'eight sigma' allusion, and we need special apparatus to show this allusion. Yet we name it. We can't escape the responsibility to name.

The essence of being is in the text; yet he/she is beyond. She cannot be judged.

But he always judges. Faith comes before action. Therefore judging faith is the preponderant issue.

It's interesting to see the Church fathers ending up in Heisenberg, and now Heisenberg is becoming a priest.
Much Know
#13 Posted : Sunday, December 30, 2012 11:31:41 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 3,548
Are you looking for knowledge?.......do you want to know the answer or you already know?..if you think you know, it is more than likely you don't, that is more or less the answer...because if i claim to be a teacher of knowledge...some say a philosopher....i must think that i know the answers....but that would mean i probably don't, thats why i say 'more or less'...particularly because where i think i teach.....it is more or less baby class philosophy...your answer is inside knowledge.
A New Kenya
quicksand
#14 Posted : Monday, December 31, 2012 1:54:45 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/5/2010
Posts: 2,061
Location: Nairobi
It is poetry. Hmmmm. That important frame of reference was missing. I am very empirical by nature, long background in technical and engineering training. I think I begin to understand now ..However, I am too drunk to provide a comprehensive answer now ... smile
ChessMaster
#15 Posted : Monday, December 31, 2012 3:34:37 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/23/2009
Posts: 1,626
tycho wrote:

'Fear itself' is the essence of being. It is the bedrock, the prime mover unmoved.


???
Uncertainty is certain.Let go
quicksand
#16 Posted : Monday, December 31, 2012 5:37:19 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/5/2010
Posts: 2,061
Location: Nairobi
tycho wrote:
josiah33 wrote:
Well! some lesson in the greek language is not bad once in awhile.


You too, Josiah?

Okay, @quicksand, the whole of the initial post is also a poem. And yes, a poem, or even a statement isn't always true. I'd say that also a statement is made because it truth isn't so obvious, else, it wouldn't be made at all!

For a moment I was convinced that my style of expression was unnecessarily ponderous or difficult, but with the above objections I realize that the problem is one of the spirit of our time more than anything else.

The clamor for simplicity has gone beyond its limit now it has become simplicism.

Ockham's razor like any other razor cannot be used to cut everything, more so, to cut into linguistic expression. The finite words in a language are to be used to create an infinite world, and this can only be done by adding complexity. Even Diogenes needed Alexander's world to be.

The arguments made for the obviousness of knowledge are deficient and false. Let me begin by reminding you that even Scientific laws are just averages, or approximations. Anything is possible, so even swinging your legs with certainty and not flying off is because the gravitational conditions that dominate in space are not dominant in your living room. But it doesn't have to be that way all the time! And you cannot determine when and how these conditions will change. Hence the need for faith.

A word is a symbol. And any symbol signifies something. Form goes with matter. Form without matter has no meaning and is insignificant, so every word is indeed, a spell.

Beauty entails poetry; what's wrong with that? In fact, poetry was my intention!

Not all criticism is just. And so far the criticism offered here is unjust. And not just that, it is both diffident and contemptuous, and full of inferiority complex, signs of the bourgeois, the mass man; a.k.a 'Middle class'.


I think you are aiming for flair, which is noble, but you are short on clarity, which is regrettable. Usually where you find clarity, simplicity isn't very far off. These are two usually intertwined concepts but they are not mutually exclusive.
You go wrong here by claiming we all universally seek simplicity; You don't see the causality of simplicity and clarity. You can project a complex yet clear idea. You drop lines, which are cryptic, then many times you stop short and don't explain them.
You mention science. Ever seen how a mathematical proof is written? It starts with predicates and then operations are done on them, values moving left and right until the final elegant proof is revealed. You provide the 'final proof' and nary how it got there. Without supporting statements, a new proof doesn't amount to much and could be an assortment of random characters anyway.
More on science; Scientific laws are averages? Where did you get that idea? In fact, a lot of scientific laws are very precise. The ratio of Pi is a very specific number for instance, so is the gravitational constant, there are very many examples ...leave science out, it is taking wind out of your sails.
Take this premise ..
Quote:
A word is a symbol. And any symbol signifies something. Form goes with matter. Form without matter has no meaning and is insignificant, so every word is indeed, a spell.

While I can't argue that a word is a symbol, it can't mean something to everyone. We encounter symbols everyday and many are meaningless, redundant or useless to our existence.
If I picked a random mandarin word and pasted it here what would that mean to you? A word on its own cannot be a spell, especially just any random word. It has to exist within coherent text explaining an understandable idea; Then you can call the sentence, verse, paragraph or book a spell. And even calling it a spell is probably not the best to convey what they are, you are dabbling in mysticism here.
Things that don't involve high order brain functions like reasoning, emotion, scheming don't deserve the high pedestal you have put them; They are units, components, cogs in a wheel,...which then makes the whole. If we did this, we'll start regarding bacteria and viruses in a new introspective light (they have form and matter don't they?) ...in the end, we'd drown in drivel.
Lastly, you have blasted the criticism. That is ironic. In my opinion your posts smack of elitism, like you want to prove your thoughts are of a higher order than a common man's, or actually mine for that matter, that is why you say they are
Quote:
contemptuous, and full of inferiority complex, signs of the bourgeois, the mass man; a.k.a 'Middle class'
,..all the things you are not, naturally.
You invoke poetry, stating that is what you intended. You didn't structure the post by conventional poetic forms; and while I don't dictate the rules, I find they help lessen the confusion.
A poem by definition
Quote:
A piece of writing that partakes of the nature of both speech and song, and that is usually rhythmical and metaphorical

Poetic
Quote:

Of, relating to, or used in poetry.
Written in verse rather than prose:

Anyhow, who says you have to follow rules? That would be a restriction on expression. However, you have excused yourself from the burden of explaining your writing cause poetry leaves writings to multiple explanations. That is indeed a masterstroke. I doff the hat.
I haven't read of any poet brought to task over their writing, as opposed to writers of plain prose. How can you hold to standard something that can be interpreted in many different ways? You want us to appreciate your thoughts, derive something useful from them, well,....It is like trying to pin down smoke. I am skeptical about things not in the plain, how can you be sure the originator is not mucking with your head for his/her own amusement?
For instance, historians and buffs have been debating this painting for 500 years, I think Hans Holbein was having a laugh. Many times I think you are doing the same thing @tycho.
Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ambassadors_(Holbein)


Have a happy new year.

tycho
#17 Posted : Monday, December 31, 2012 8:12:26 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
@quicksand, happy new year!

I have found your arguments most provocative and edifying, and I must thank you for that.

Quicksand mathematical constants are not scientific laws. Again, pi and G are numbers with so many decimals that tend to approach but never touch a certain value, and so any time you want to use them you 'round off'. Even these mathematical constants are averages.

It is impossible to have an absolutely random word. If you gave me a random word in mandarin and I don't know mandarin, I'll infer that the combination of letters or characters must mean something I don't understand.

If you look at your definition of poetry as I see the word 'usually' another average. Again meter and other features of style imply beauty, or 'flair' as you have put it.

A poem can be defended, especially if it's on a medium like wazua.

I have interest in criticizing middle class as a philosophy, nay, I am also criticizing myself. We have to go nobility. Man God is nobility.

This post may not be as poetic as I'd wish; nimetoka kucheza ball na nime beat mbaya! But happy new year again!
sentinel prime
#18 Posted : Monday, December 31, 2012 10:51:53 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 11/12/2012
Posts: 92
ChessMaster wrote:
tycho wrote:

'Fear itself' is the essence of being. It is the bedrock, the prime mover unmoved.


???

lol! Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly

what your looking for is EQ...which is more important than IQ.
ChessMaster
#19 Posted : Tuesday, January 01, 2013 7:04:53 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/23/2009
Posts: 1,626
No,just some things there I wanted to be explained
Uncertainty is certain.Let go
tycho
#20 Posted : Tuesday, January 01, 2013 10:04:45 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
ChessMaster wrote:
tycho wrote:

'Fear itself' is the essence of being. It is the bedrock, the prime mover unmoved.


???


The essence of being is action under uncertainty, and action means force.

That is, being is brought forth by the force of uncertainty.

Fear, is the force of uncertainty; and uncertainty can never be done away with, therefore fear cannot be moved.

Therefore fear is the prime mover unmoved.




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