Wazua
»
Club SK
»
Life
»
IS HEAVEN A PHYSICAL PLACE OR A STATE OF MIND?
Rank: Member Joined: 12/17/2011 Posts: 887
|
ChessMaster wrote:@hamburglar - what do u suggest we do Dude, just do right by your fellow man...That's all you need to do....Everything else about heaven and hell and Jesus and Allah and Mohammed is nonsense....The only thing you need to do is to make a conscious effort to be a good person...Help your neighbor, always choose to do good no matter the situation or circusmtance and you will live a very fulfilling life....Anything else is just fear mongering by men who want to control other men...It's in the nature of human beings to want to control other men and things like religion and imaginary gods offer a very good source of fear....Man will not stop at anything to get ahead of other men......Religion offers fear and reward and selling this fear and reward to the masses is a very lucrative business for most people...It's a dog eat dog society and man will use everything at his disposal to get the power, riches and admiration....And that is the reason god and religions were created, for man to rule over other men....I don't worry about all that stuff because it's ingrained in me to do the right thing whether it's convenient for me or not and not because some supreme being is watching and taking notes...Why do I need a god then if I already live my life the right way? To secure a ticket to heaven? If this god can't give me that "ticket" based on how I lived my life, then he can keep it, I don't want it....I don't need it..I won't kiss his ass for favors, my integrity and self-esteem won't let me live such a shameless quid pro quo lifestyle.....
What good has religion done for humanity other than death and bloodshed everyday in the name of gods? That's all religion and gods do, they pit human beings against each other and the result is always violence and death.....How is that a good thing for mankind? And that's the reason that I am proud to be an atheist, you will never see a bunch of atheists attacking a muslim or christin or thoriwing bombs into sunday schools killing children and all the other nonsense that theists get into...It's because we get it, we understand it, we don't have time to starp bombs around our bodies in the name of a fictitious god.....It's all about reasoning and employing common sense.
So, to answer your question, what do I suggest you do? I suggest you live a morally upright life and be a good human being that helps his fellow man without any expectations....Just do the right thing simply because it's the right thing to do......Period, end of discussion.
|
|
|
Rank: Member Joined: 1/14/2012 Posts: 201 Location: nairobi
|
hamburglar wrote:Joshgat wrote:TiggerTiggy wrote:@hamburglar, dude, you had better hope you are right because if not, you will be next to the coals, for eternity! Don't scare the dude so much. Probably he will just be denying life after death somewhere in another astral plane once he is dead and he will be stalled while other enlightened men explored what's beyond. Only weak minded people are scared of fairy tales...Plus if thsi god of yours actually does exist and ends up sending me to eternal damnation to burn in fire for eternity, that will just prove my point that he is a very very evil god....Who is that evil as to send someone they call their child to such torture for eternity nonetheless? And what exactly did I do wrong other than ask him to help us human beings because we need the help...Look, the scare tactics that theists use don't work on me...I am not one to fret nonsense....
I actaully have done more for humanity than a lot of theists combined have done because I understand that it's up to us to lift each other up because evidently your god is too busy sending people to burn for eternity to help anybody....If that's what your god does, then I don't want to be associated with such an evil person....Instead of helping starving children he is more concerned with sending his " bad children" to burn forever? Unfortunately for you theists, your hell and eternal fire scare tactics don't scare me AT ALL....You can use that on weak minded people to keep religion going, but for people like me, it's never going to happen....
If you are asking me to be religious so that i don't end up next to the coals for eternity, doesn't that just prove my point? That religion is all about fear and reward...Theists are not religious because they love this god, they are religious because they are afraid of burning in hell for eternity and also hoping to get into heaven to claim their mansions.....I keep it real, I don't want the mansions in heaven, I will not kiss somebody's ass so that he can reward me later with a mansion, f*** that....That's being two-faced and my pride and ethics can't allow me to stoop that low...I don't kiss ass so as to get favors on the back end, if I do something good, I do it because it's the right thing to do, not because I am hoping for a ticket into heaven and a pass from hell.....If your god will send people like me to hell, then I will gladly go because I can't worship such an evil person.....
If he is god, he should then understand that people will have a difference of opinion with him but that doesn't mean that if somebody opposes you and your opinion they should be burned for eternity.....can't he handle criticism of his work, which by the way is accurate criticism because his work is shoddy? Look at this world, it's a mess? Is he a dictator that the only way to subscribe to is his way or the highway? How come he can't listen to suggestions from people who are living the horrors here on earth and experiencing these problems? Is he a snob? My suggestion to him is to get off his ass and do something to help the people who are suffering in this world....If that question is too hard for him to handle then he needs to quit his god job and let somebody else who can fix things down here handle the position. We need a serious god that has empathy towards his children, not a vindictive god whose only agenda is to kill kill kill anybody who questions his existance.....Is he obsessed with killing? Didn't he kill enough people during Noah's time and in Soddom and Gomorrha? Is he that blood thirsty? Instead of having an unhealthy obsession with killing and punishment, he needs to channel that negative energy into helping his children who are sufffering here on earth..Then he might be worthy of my worship...
Otherwise he can kiss my ass, I will question him and his BS work that he is doing and if he doesn't like it, he can send me to that imaginary hell.....What a piece of shit god he is, anybody that metes out such painful punishment to his "children" atheists or otherwise, needs some serious counselling....there is no way he can have a heart and do something so diabolique to his children as having them burn for eternity....This god guy has some serious serious issues that need to be addressed ASAP.....Really serious issues. @Humbungler Note here that there is no talk about God or heaven and hell, at least not in they way people think of this things. I wonder why the bible and the God of Abraham or whichever God always come into mind whenever the possibility of an afterlife is mentioned. LIFE IS SO GOOD
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
|
@Hamburglar, it is true that there are, and there have been many people who have used religion to create fear and subjugate others for their selfish purposes, but it isn't true that all religion serves this purpose.
And neither is it true to say that religion is the main reason behind war and strife amongst humanity. For example, the middle East conflict, which is a major conflict is far from religious. So is the conflict between China and Tibet.
Moreover, we must admit that Man is essentially religious (I'll touch on the reasons for this later) and that it is inevitable for him to use religion and its symbols to further his pursuit of power, fame, wealth, and even the 'Kingdom of God'.
But taking all these accounts together doesn't leave us with the conclusions you are so fond of making.
So far, you have never told us where your ideas of goodness come from, though you have always claimed that this faculty is innate. But ideas of innate knowledge are rooted on theism and the perfectibility of the soul via reincarnation.
Otherwise one is born with a 'tabula- rassa' which is filled with ideas from without. Such that all these things you say were acquired from your teachers.
In any case, your posts on theism and atheism leave me with the conviction that you have refused to grow beyond your Sunday school lessons. Hence, the tendency to over simplify matters.
For example, to say that one should do good in an evil world without expecting anything beats the logic of goodness. Also, it is false to believe that your innate goodness is enough to create a perfect world even without others being transformed from evil to goodness.
The individual cannot be accountable to other humans who are mainly selfish and evil, only. In such a case, ethics and morality would cease to exist as there'd be no ethical frame of reference. This is why Man seeks God.
|
|
|
Rank: Member Joined: 12/17/2011 Posts: 887
|
And neither is it true to say that religion is the main reason behind war and strife amongst humanity. For example, the middle East conflict, which is a major conflict is far from religious. So is the conflict between China and Tibet.
Whether you choose to admit it or not, religion is the main reason for most of the war and strife in this world....It's a fact...Ideological differences are a distant second...It's a fact, almost all the wars that are being fought around the world right now are propagated by religious differences. The Middle east conflict is an ostensible RELIGIOUS conflict...You and I both know that the Hamas are a muslim fundamentalist group that is embroiled in a never ending war with the Israeli Jews.....
Moreover, we must admit that Man is essentially religious (I'll touch on the reasons for this later) and that it is inevitable for him to use religion and its symbols to further his pursuit of power, fame, wealth, and even the 'Kingdom of God'.
Man is not essentially religious, everybody is born without the knowledge of a god thereby an atheist and is then indocrinated into religion by their parents and society. So no, man is not essentially religious, man is taught to be religious.
So far, you have never told us where your ideas of goodness come from, though you have always claimed that this faculty is innate. But ideas of innate knowledge are rooted on theism and the perfectibility of the soul via reincarnation.
Goodness doesn't have to have a source, goodness should be something you decide to deliberately do...It's a conscientous to be good, not some sort of acquired philosophy where you need ideas to derive the source.....It's really a simple issue, you choose to be good, anything else is just complicating an issue that doesn't need complication...I am not sure why you tycho try to make things more complex that they are.....Why do you need a reason to be good? Just be good, period, end of conversation....Anything else is secondary.
Otherwise one is born with a 'tabula- rassa' which is filled with ideas from without. Such that all these things you say were acquired from your teachers.
Yes, those ideas were acquired from teachers, parents and society as a whole.
In any case, your posts on theism and atheism leave me with the conviction that you have refused to grow beyond your Sunday school lessons. Hence, the tendency to over simplify matters.
I over simplify matters because they really are just that...simple matters....these issues are black and white, when you try to make them gray then you end up in an abyss and end going going round and round in circles when there really isn't a reason for the vicious cycle on a really simplistic issue..It's really simple, sunday school lessons or not, it's not rocket science when deciding to do good and to live a righteous life....It's really that simple tycho, don't try to put a spin on everything with word puzzles that distract from the real subject....You tycho always go for the sensational, the dramatic, always trying to kill a housefly with a sledge hammer, when all you need is just a simple answer.....it's not neccessary, it's not that complicated.
For example, to say that one should do good in an evil world without expecting anything beats the logic of goodness. Also, it is false to believe that your innate goodness is enough to create a perfect world even without others being transformed from evil to goodness.
Dude, you really need to get serious...Are you telling me that one cannot do good out of the goodness of his heart without expecting anything in return? I hope I misunderstood you because if that's how you view life, then there is definitely a problem....I am a perfect example of somebody who does some good in this world and I don't expect anything AT ALL in retur.....And even if I were to be offered something in return, I would not acept it...It's called INTEGRITY, it's a rewarding feeling, very liberating, it doesn't matter how evil this world is, but if you do good, do good because it's the right thing to do, period......I am not sure why you are always looking for some sort of explanation to everything even something that doesn't need explanation, some of us really just do good because it's the right thing to do, we don't expect anything back....get real dude..And it's not false to believe that innate goodness can transform this world into a better place..It might not make the world perfect but if everybody tried hard to be a good person, that innate goodness you are talking about can immensely transform this world into a much much better place....Unfortunately it sounds like you are a skeptic and a glass half empty kind of guy...That is a defeatist attitude.....I am not gullible, I know we are never going to have an ideal world, but we can make this place a better place for our children if people summoned and corraled that innate goodness inside them...
The individual cannot be accountable to other humans who are mainly selfish and evil, only. In such a case, ethics and morality would cease to exist as there'd be no ethical frame of reference. This is why Man seeks God.
Not having an ethical frame of reference would actually be a good thing because it will signify that people have the capability of living life the right way without the need to reference a code of ethics and morality for guidance.......That would be a major achievement and a good thing for humanity.....Anytime you don't have a need to refer back to some codes to rid yourself of a detrimental lifestyle means that you have made positive strides forward into achieving a place where goodness is inherent and doesn't need to be referenced or instilled anymore....If only we could have that...........[/quote]
|
|
|
Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
|
Is Heaven a real place? “Heaven’s but the vision of fulfilled desire And hell the shadow from a soul on fire Cast on the darkness into which ourselves So late emerged from, shall soon return. “ The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayam "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 1/27/2011 Posts: 1,777
|
Is it true that we are hardwired to believe in God and the supernatural-an evolutionary advantage for man's survival- and is GOD ALL ON OUR BRAINS?
Tell me is some people are genetically predisposed to be religious than others and who between a theistic person and an atheist is born and not made?
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
|
Hamburglar, Hamas may be 'Islamist' but that doesn't make them the source or cause of conflict in the Middle East. The conflict is about territory and sovereignty. Things that even cats, dogs and cocks fight for. It's really that 'simple'.
Man goes beyond physical form and into relationships, and roles, and is born in a social context. And there can never be a society without religion. Please consult even the most rudimentary text book on anthropology to confirm this.
I will repeat again, it doesn't make sense to act or to commit to an act and be indifferent to the results. Of course people will say, 'tenda wema na uende zako', but they also say, 'utavuna ulicho kipanda'. Humans need to experience goodness. If anything, it is impossible for a human to be receiving evil from others and giving out goodness, in a Godless world. It is an age old principle that one cannot give that which he doesn't have.
As I told you earlier, the moment you speak of innate goodness is the moment you get into theism. For everything with a name has a source. Or rather, to name is to differentiate.
That is the importance of frames of reference. If they are absent then there's no word and no Man.
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
|
josiah33 wrote:Is it true that we are hardwired to believe in God and the supernatural-an evolutionary advantage for man's survival- and is GOD ALL ON OUR BRAINS?
Tell me is some people are genetically predisposed to be religious than others and who between a theistic person and an atheist is born and not made? Don't be fooled. Atheism doesn't exist. There's a time I almost took it up. I had heard an account of Carl Sagan refusing to acknowledge God on his death bed, and I said wow! What courage! But courage is not equal to truth. Remember Leakey of Moi's 'dream team'? In the end his worth was only clear when talking about fossils. But in day to day matters? A Guy run out of breath. And then there's this psychiatrist Eustace Chesser who made an analysis on the poet Shelley, he could only describe Shelley's existential predicament and no more. No hope, no cure. Because at the time I was reading the analysis I was so much like the poet, I had to look for God in order to find rest. And you can imagine that the doctor ended the book with a case for atheism! So don't worry, hamburger haitoshi saucer!
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 1/27/2011 Posts: 1,777
|
tycho wrote:josiah33 wrote:Is it true that we are hardwired to believe in God and the supernatural-an evolutionary advantage for man's survival- and is GOD ALL ON OUR BRAINS?
Tell me is some people are genetically predisposed to be religious than others and who between a theistic person and an atheist is born and not made? Don't be fooled. Atheism doesn't exist. There's a time I almost took it up. I had heard an account of Carl Sagan refusing to acknowledge God on his death bed, and I said wow! What courage! But courage is not equal to truth. Remember Leakey of Moi's 'dream team'? In the end his worth was only clear when talking about fossils. But in day to day matters? A Guy run out of breath. And then there's this psychiatrist Eustace Chesser who made an analysis on the poet Shelley, he could only describe Shelley's existential predicament and no more. No hope, no cure. Because at the time I was reading the analysis I was so much like the poet, I had to look for God in order to find rest. And you can imagine that the doctor ended the book with a case for atheism! So don't worry, hamburger haitoshi saucer! @ TYCHO. YOU HAVEN'T SAID WHETHER THE 'GOD EXPERIENCES' ALL HAPPEN IN OUR BRAINS AND WHETHER WE ARE BORN TO BE RELIGIOUS OR NOT. DOES AN ATHEIST LEARN TO BE ONE OR IS HE BORN?
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
|
josiah33 wrote:tycho wrote:josiah33 wrote:Is it true that we are hardwired to believe in God and the supernatural-an evolutionary advantage for man's survival- and is GOD ALL ON OUR BRAINS?
Tell me is some people are genetically predisposed to be religious than others and who between a theistic person and an atheist is born and not made? Don't be fooled. Atheism doesn't exist. There's a time I almost took it up. I had heard an account of Carl Sagan refusing to acknowledge God on his death bed, and I said wow! What courage! But courage is not equal to truth. Remember Leakey of Moi's 'dream team'? In the end his worth was only clear when talking about fossils. But in day to day matters? A Guy run out of breath. And then there's this psychiatrist Eustace Chesser who made an analysis on the poet Shelley, he could only describe Shelley's existential predicament and no more. No hope, no cure. Because at the time I was reading the analysis I was so much like the poet, I had to look for God in order to find rest. And you can imagine that the doctor ended the book with a case for atheism! So don't worry, hamburger haitoshi saucer! @ TYCHO. YOU HAVEN'T SAID WHETHER THE 'GOD EXPERIENCES' ALL HAPPEN IN OUR BRAINS AND WHETHER WE ARE BORN TO BE RELIGIOUS OR NOT. DOES AN ATHEIST LEARN TO BE ONE OR IS HE BORN? Human birth is religious, 'atheism' is an acquired taste or fashion.
|
|
|
Wazua
»
Club SK
»
Life
»
IS HEAVEN A PHYSICAL PLACE OR A STATE OF MIND?
Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.
|