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IS HEAVEN A PHYSICAL PLACE OR A STATE OF MIND?
Rank: Member Joined: 12/17/2011 Posts: 887
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ChessMaster wrote:@hamburglar - Lets assume that God doesn't exist. If that's the case who is to blame for rape,murder,theft,slavery,pollution,greed,moral decay and the likes? Fact is the world is the way it is because of our own evil! Now believing that God exists,he gave us freewill.We rejected his guidance to satisfy our pride and desires.Mtoto akililia wembe mpe.We can see the results of our own leadership.That's where judgement comes in.Even on earth you are responsible for your actions at home,school,work...is it such a big leap to think you would be responsible for the actions of your life too? Chess, how is it freewill if this so called god already knows what you are going to do in life anyway? It can't be free will if he created somebody knowing full well that that person was going to end up being a thief, right?.....Afterall, isn't god omni-everything, as in doesn't he know what somebody will end up being even before they are born? If that's the case, isn't that playing favourites? Creating some people to be good and some people to be bad? How is that fair? Why does he create some people to be Ivy league scholars with high IQ's, good looks etc and then create some people in such difficult circumstances dooming them to failure the moment they are born? And why is he letting people have free will when he can just make everybody do right in the first place?...Isn't that entrapment? Some of the ills that people do is not because they want to, some of it is out of desperation, people are struggling, some people steal because they are hungry, some people kill sometimes because they are unstable due to some mental illness, it's easy to say that people are responsible for their actions when you and I are speaking from a position of comfort in our lives, but a lot of people don't have the luxury that you and I enjoy, a lot of people don't have time to discuss things like this like you and I because they are desperately looking for a meal, a lot of people would like to be responsible for their actions, a lot of people (maybe everybody) would like to have a good comfprtable life, but circumstances sometimes force people to do the ills that you are talking about....
Sometimes we forget that not everybody is as lucky as you and I are to be able to be responsible for our actions...Not everybody has food on their table like you and I, not everybody is of sound mind, a huge population of people in this world are in dire straits and sometimes desperation pushes even good people to the brink of death and makes people do desperate things that to you and I might say is irresponsible, but until we have walked in their shoes we can't just dismiss them as being irresponsible....A lot of otherwise good people have been dealt a bad hand right from birth and sometimes playing that hand might not be as easy as we think..I am not excusing ills, people have a responsibility to be good human beings, but sometimes desperation will make some people do bad things...I can understand why a man who is starving to death might want to steal a loaf of bread if that's the only option left, I understand why a mother with a starving child would steal a gallon of milk to feed her child, I understand how a man with mental illness who cannot afford medical care would kill because he is of unsound mind and the world has given him the middle finger by not giving him the help he needs to avoid the killing...This world is harsh, it'a dog eat dog world and the misfits are left to their own vice...Everybody is so busy pursuing their own selfish needs that the more fortunate people the world over forget or don't care about the weak in society....
People are selfish, the world is a mess, if this god really existed, he would know better than to give human beings free will in such a messed up world where life is so hard, its inevitable that some people will do wrong to survive..If this god had created a perfect world instead (which he is capable of as am led to believe) then gave people free will and then some of us decided to deliberately do wrong, I would call those people irresponsible and ungrateful, but your god cannot give people free will in such an imperfect world and expect everybody to do good and live a righteous life....it's just not that black and white and that's why I would have a problem with this god if he existed....I don't understand how he would just sit back and watch kids, innocent kids at that, starve to death just because he claims that he gave humans free will and so he is operating hands off....It just doesn't make sense....If you have ever gone a couple of hours on an empty stomach without food and felt how traumatizing being hungry is, you will understand why starving to death is perharps one of the worst ways to die....it's inhumane, and this god just sits and watches as 2,3,4,5 year olds die like this every five minutes around the world? His defense is that he gave us free will? Surely, how can someone defend that? How lame is that reason? If I were to ever meet this god I would really be incensed at him for that...I would put him to task, I would demand answers as to why he let innocent kids starve to death and why he let cancer torment people for years unabated...He can he just sit and watch as these atrocities happen? I can't worship a man like that, to me that's evil, that's saddist, there is no way I would want to be associated with somebody that allegedly can give us a cure for cancer and yet deliberately holds it back as his "children" continue to suffer everyday from this epidemic.....
I just don't understand? He wants us to worship him and kiss his ass everyday, praying and begging him for a cure for cancer and he can't even do us that one favor? Why do we even have to ask him for a cure anyway, he can see just how devastating cancer is, doesn't he have a heart? how callous is this guy? All he cares about is who is worshipping him and who is not and yet people need his help? We have been praying for a cure for cancer for years and years, what's his excuse for hoarding it from us? Does he enjoy seeing people going through painful chemotherapy? What the f*** is his problem?
The world is the way it is because of our evil, you are very right about that, but if thsi god realy does exist and can get rid of the evil in the world, why doesn't he just do that for once and for all? he can already see that man has failed to rid himself of evil, it's been centuries of evil, wars, murders, human beings cannot help themselves, we have failed miserabley to eradicate evil and this evil has brought untold misery on the human race, so much pain, so much suffering, don't you think it would be time for thsi god to understand that his children can't help themselves and maybe intervene and get rid of the evil for us? Doesn't he want his children to be happy? I don't get it, thsi god is giving us a responsibility that we are 100% incapble of handling, isn't it time that he understood that this is futile and stepped in to stop the evil and make everybody's life much more bearable? I don't understand why he is still waiting for man to sort their mess when it's evident that it's never going to happen...Not now not in the future, and I am not a pessimist but i am just calling it like it is, am keeping it real, suffering in thsi world will never go away....
Chess, mtoto akililia wembe, usimpe wembe, please don't buy into those old misguided methalis or whatever that is.....Mtoto akililia wembe, msaidie kuelewa ati hiyo wembe itamuumiza....If you love this mtoto, don't give him the wembe and let him hurt himself, understand why he is crying for the wembe and try to teach him why the wembe is harmful.....It's your mtoto, love your mtoto, don't give up on them just because you are selfish and lazy...We are this god's children and instead of thsi god doing all that is in his power to keep us away from the wembe (evil) he gives us the wembe and then sits back and watches as we cut ourelves to pieces with the wembe when it's evident that the situation could have been handled differently and saved a the children a lot of pain with the wembe......If this god has the capability of giving us mansions and roads paved with gold, why is he so bent on giving us the wembe instead? Does he really love his mtoto the way theists claim he does? Am not sure why your god prefers punishment instead of helping us afterall, life is hard, people need help, instead of punishing humans that are already suffering enough, why doesn't he give them mansions instead of wembe?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/23/2009 Posts: 1,626
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@hamburglar - what do u suggest we do Uncertainty is certain.Let go
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/9/2006 Posts: 1,502
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This God guy should at least appear once in a decade to encourage his pple. Or might be very comfortable up there fearing winter, violence and hunger. Heaven might be a very boring place eating ,fun , s*x 24/7. work to prosper
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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With proper attitude and training, the 'child' learns to walk on a tight-rope, becomes a great musician, and any other noble vocation you may recall to mind.
But the passive student who always expects the teacher to do the home work for him, will always be rugged and unruly, ever whining and pinning, and when the teacher's rod fails to make him mend his ways, he will head to inevitable destruction.
And so is it when we fail to exercise faith in the wisdom, and power, and mercies of God! We cannot despise human free will and expect to experience God.
It may be that God 'comes' to man daily, and you've never noticed it.
Again, if there were no illnesses, and no 'evil', what noble thing would man do? Man wouldn't even be!
You cannot find unless you seek.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Tokyo wrote:This God guy should at least appear once in a decade to encourage his pple. Or might be very comfortable up there fearing winter, violence and hunger. Heaven might be a very boring place eating ,fun , s*x 24/7. A child may vow that there's no greater good and pleasure than eating chocolate, or ice cream. But when he grows he discovers other pleasures that he had never imagined. Likewise, here in heaven, we do not only enjoy power, and love, but we also bestow unto our Lord, praises and hymns, and in all he does we are one. Having tasted the profane and earthly, I can only say you haven't the slightest idea of what you are saying.
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Rank: Chief Joined: 3/24/2010 Posts: 6,779 Location: Black Africa
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/13/2011 Posts: 660
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@hamburglar, dude, you had better hope you are right because if not, you will be next to the coals, for eternity!
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Rank: New-farer Joined: 7/23/2010 Posts: 40 Location: Nairobi
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TiggerTiggy wrote:@hamburglar, dude, you had better hope you are right because if not, you will be next to the coals, for eternity! Don't scare the dude so much. Probably he will just be denying life after death somewhere in another astral plane once he is dead and he will be stalled while other enlightened men explored what's beyond.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/5/2010 Posts: 2,061 Location: Nairobi
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Where is AlphDoti? He is uncharacteristically quiet ...I would very much like a long, winded opinion on this @AlphDoti ...or to be honest see you duke it out with @harmbuglar and his heavy hitting posts ....
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Rank: Member Joined: 12/17/2011 Posts: 887
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Joshgat wrote:TiggerTiggy wrote:@hamburglar, dude, you had better hope you are right because if not, you will be next to the coals, for eternity! Don't scare the dude so much. Probably he will just be denying life after death somewhere in another astral plane once he is dead and he will be stalled while other enlightened men explored what's beyond. Only weak minded people are scared of fairy tales...Plus if thsi god of yours actually does exist and ends up sending me to eternal damnation to burn in fire for eternity, that will just prove my point that he is a very very evil god....Who is that evil as to send someone they call their child to such torture for eternity nonetheless? And what exactly did I do wrong other than ask him to help us human beings because we need the help...Look, the scare tactics that theists use don't work on me...I am not one to fret nonsense....
I actaully have done more for humanity than a lot of theists combined have done because I understand that it's up to us to lift each other up because evidently your god is too busy sending people to burn for eternity to help anybody....If that's what your god does, then I don't want to be associated with such an evil person....Instead of helping starving children he is more concerned with sending his " bad children" to burn forever? Unfortunately for you theists, your hell and eternal fire scare tactics don't scare me AT ALL....You can use that on weak minded people to keep religion going, but for people like me, it's never going to happen....
If you are asking me to be religious so that i don't end up next to the coals for eternity, doesn't that just prove my point? That religion is all about fear and reward...Theists are not religious because they love this god, they are religious because they are afraid of burning in hell for eternity and also hoping to get into heaven to claim their mansions.....I keep it real, I don't want the mansions in heaven, I will not kiss somebody's ass so that he can reward me later with a mansion, f*** that....That's being two-faced and my pride and ethics can't allow me to stoop that low...I don't kiss ass so as to get favors on the back end, if I do something good, I do it because it's the right thing to do, not because I am hoping for a ticket into heaven and a pass from hell.....If your god will send people like me to hell, then I will gladly go because I can't worship such an evil person.....
If he is god, he should then understand that people will have a difference of opinion with him but that doesn't mean that if somebody opposes you and your opinion they should be burned for eternity.....can't he handle criticism of his work, which by the way is accurate criticism because his work is shoddy? Look at this world, it's a mess? Is he a dictator that the only way to subscribe to is his way or the highway? How come he can't listen to suggestions from people who are living the horrors here on earth and experiencing these problems? Is he a snob? My suggestion to him is to get off his ass and do something to help the people who are suffering in this world....If that question is too hard for him to handle then he needs to quit his god job and let somebody else who can fix things down here handle the position. We need a serious god that has empathy towards his children, not a vindictive god whose only agenda is to kill kill kill anybody who questions his existance.....Is he obsessed with killing? Didn't he kill enough people during Noah's time and in Soddom and Gomorrha? Is he that blood thirsty? Instead of having an unhealthy obsession with killing and punishment, he needs to channel that negative energy into helping his children who are sufffering here on earth..Then he might be worthy of my worship...
Otherwise he can kiss my ass, I will question him and his BS work that he is doing and if he doesn't like it, he can send me to that imaginary hell.....What a piece of shit god he is, anybody that metes out such painful punishment to his "children" atheists or otherwise, needs some serious counselling....there is no way he can have a heart and do something so diabolique to his children as having them burn for eternity....This god guy has some serious serious issues that need to be addressed ASAP.....Really serious issues.
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