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CIC by yaserbigchair
Liv
#101 Posted : Monday, July 30, 2012 12:27:11 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/14/2006
Posts: 1,311
Hunderwear wrote:
e_kijana wrote:
bird_man wrote:
Price 4.95sh....DD 1.2M Vs SS 236K shares.
My share certificate still taking long to be immobilized.Is this a deliberate move to further reduce supply?



LOL - It is CDSC that manages the immobilization once shares have been verified to be yours... so I doubt it:)


Dont rule it out.Share registrars are coop bank and all they do is keep the certificates once they are handed over to them by the brokers.Anyway me dont think that is the case most people arent willing to sell it as most are wazees.As I said earlier entry point was 4 bob at least for now


@Bird_man,
You will not be able to sell soon.
This is a quiet strategy in Coop.... share immobilization takes ages
PKoli
#102 Posted : Monday, July 30, 2012 12:34:16 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/10/2007
Posts: 1,587
Hunderwear wrote:
e_kijana wrote:
bird_man wrote:
Price 4.95sh....DD 1.2M Vs SS 236K shares.
My share certificate still taking long to be immobilized.Is this a deliberate move to further reduce supply?



LOL - It is CDSC that manages the immobilization once shares have been verified to be yours... so I doubt it:)


Dont rule it out.Share registrars are coop bank and all they do is keep the certificates once they are handed over to them by the brokers.Anyway me dont think that is the case most people arent willing to sell it as most are wazees.As I said earlier entry point was 4 bob at least for now


This makes sense. I think not many people have also mobilized their shares. The free float is too thin for the demand.when supply comes in significantly we should see prices in the range of 4 bob.
bird_man
#103 Posted : Monday, July 30, 2012 12:34:21 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/2/2006
Posts: 1,206
Location: Nairobi
Liv wrote:
Hunderwear wrote:
e_kijana wrote:
bird_man wrote:
Price 4.95sh....DD 1.2M Vs SS 236K shares.
My share certificate still taking long to be immobilized.Is this a deliberate move to further reduce supply?



LOL - It is CDSC that manages the immobilization once shares have been verified to be yours... so I doubt it:)


Dont rule it out.Share registrars are coop bank and all they do is keep the certificates once they are handed over to them by the brokers.Anyway me dont think that is the case most people arent willing to sell it as most are wazees.As I said earlier entry point was 4 bob at least for now


@Bird_man,
You will not be able to sell soon.
This is a quiet strategy in Coop.... share immobilization takes ages


I suspect as well but let me wait & see.My broker says the Coop registrars are always putting the immobilization on & off yet the certs were submitted long ago.The price will move up by 10% daily!
Formally employed people often live their employers' dream & forget about their own.
Ericsson
#104 Posted : Monday, July 30, 2012 12:45:35 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/4/2009
Posts: 10,702
Location: NAIROBI
Once the certificates for the mwananchi are immobilized the share price will come down to the ksh.4 range
The mbig mboys would have made their money.
Wealth is built through a relatively simple equation
Wealth=Income + Investments - Lifestyle
e_kijana
#105 Posted : Monday, July 30, 2012 12:53:40 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/17/2009
Posts: 55
Ericsson wrote:
Once the certificates for the mwananchi are immobilized the share price will come down to the ksh.4 range
The mbig mboys would have made their money.


Top 30 Shareholders own over 90%! Top 20 shareholders listed in information memorandum own over 83%. About 8-10% of the individual shareholding is held by management/directors so even without restrictions unlikely to be selling soon. Add the 74% Institutional holding that cannot be sold until after 5 years. This thing is gonna be in short supply for a while...
Hunderwear
#106 Posted : Monday, July 30, 2012 5:11:58 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 4/14/2011
Posts: 639
e_kijana wrote:
Ericsson wrote:
Once the certificates for the mwananchi are immobilized the share price will come down to the ksh.4 range
The mbig mboys would have made their money.


Top 30 Shareholders own over 90%! Top 20 shareholders listed in information memorandum own over 83%. About 8-10% of the individual shareholding is held by management/directors so even without restrictions unlikely to be selling soon. Add the 74% Institutional holding that cannot be sold until after 5 years. This thing is gonna be in short supply for a while...



Coop Bank now owns 35% CIC
Ericsson
#107 Posted : Monday, July 30, 2012 5:17:40 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/4/2009
Posts: 10,702
Location: NAIROBI
How now does Co-op bank own 35% yet in the IM it was 26%.
CIC hasn't traded 200 million shares since listing for Co-op bank to have increased shareholding
Wealth is built through a relatively simple equation
Wealth=Income + Investments - Lifestyle
Hunderwear
#108 Posted : Monday, July 30, 2012 6:08:07 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 4/14/2011
Posts: 639
Ericsson wrote:
How now does Co-op bank own 35% yet in the IM it was 26%.
CIC hasn't traded 200 million shares since listing for Co-op bank to have increased shareholding


TOP 20 SHAREHOLDERS IN THE CIS CO-OPERATIVE SOCIETY
Name
Percentage
Holding
1 THE CO-OPERATIVE BANK OF KENYA LTD 35.71
2 CO-OPERATIVE BANK SAVINGS AND CREDIT SOCIETY LTD 9.63
3 K.UNITY SAVINGS AND CREDIT CO-OPERATIVE SOCIETY LIMITED. 3.21
4 HARAMBEE CO-OPERATIVE SAVINGS AND CREDIT SOCIETY LTD 1.81
5 EMBU FARMERS SAVINGS AND CREDIT CO-OPERATIVE SOCIETY LTD 1.78
6 KIPSIGIS TEACHERS SAVINGS & CREDIT SOCIETY LTD 1.53
7 FEP CO-OPERATIVE SAVINGS AND CREDIT SOCIETY LTD 1.48
8 BARINGO TEACHERS SAVINGS AND CREDIT CO-OPERATIVE SOCIETY LTD 1.34
9 H& M SAVINGS AND CREDIT CO-OPERATIVE SOCIETY LTD. 1.27
10
KENYA POLICE STAFF CO-OPERATIVE SAVINGS AND CREDIT SOCIETY
LTD 1.22
11 BANDARI CO-OPERATIVE SAVINGS AND CREDIT SOCIETY LTD 1.03
12 NEW GENERATIONS SAVINGS AND CREDIT CO-OPERATIVE SOCIETY LTD 0.95
13 NDEGE CHAI CO-OPERATIVE SAVINGS AND CREDIT SOCIETY LTD 0.83
14 STIMA CO-OPERATIVE SAVINGS AND CREDIT SOCIETY LTD 0.78
15 WAKENYA PAMOJA SAVINGS AND CREDIT CO-OPERATIVE SOCIETY LTD 0.75
16 NACICO SAVINGS AND CREDIT CO-OPERATIVE SOCIETY 0.72
17 CHEMELIL SAVINGS AND CREDIT CO-OPERATIVE SOCIETY LTD 0.69
18 BANKI KUU CO-OPERATIVE SAVINGS AND CREDIT SOCIETY LTD 0.66
19 MWALIMU CO-OPERATIVE SAVINGS & CREDIT SOCIETY LTD 0.64
54
20 MHASIBU CO-OPERATIVE SAVINGS AND CREDIT SOCIETY LTD 0.63
TOTAL 66.68

Think you are right!
PKoli
#109 Posted : Monday, July 30, 2012 6:15:27 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/10/2007
Posts: 1,587
Hunderwear wrote:
Ericsson wrote:
How now does Co-op bank own 35% yet in the IM it was 26%.
CIC hasn't traded 200 million shares since listing for Co-op bank to have increased shareholding


TOP 20 SHAREHOLDERS IN THE CIS CO-OPERATIVE SOCIETY
Name
Percentage
Holding
1 THE CO-OPERATIVE BANK OF KENYA LTD 35.71
2 CO-OPERATIVE BANK SAVINGS AND CREDIT SOCIETY LTD 9.63
3 K.UNITY SAVINGS AND CREDIT CO-OPERATIVE SOCIETY LIMITED. 3.21
4 HARAMBEE CO-OPERATIVE SAVINGS AND CREDIT SOCIETY LTD 1.81
5 EMBU FARMERS SAVINGS AND CREDIT CO-OPERATIVE SOCIETY LTD 1.78
6 KIPSIGIS TEACHERS SAVINGS & CREDIT SOCIETY LTD 1.53
7 FEP CO-OPERATIVE SAVINGS AND CREDIT SOCIETY LTD 1.48
8 BARINGO TEACHERS SAVINGS AND CREDIT CO-OPERATIVE SOCIETY LTD 1.34
9 H& M SAVINGS AND CREDIT CO-OPERATIVE SOCIETY LTD. 1.27
10
KENYA POLICE STAFF CO-OPERATIVE SAVINGS AND CREDIT SOCIETY
LTD 1.22
11 BANDARI CO-OPERATIVE SAVINGS AND CREDIT SOCIETY LTD 1.03
12 NEW GENERATIONS SAVINGS AND CREDIT CO-OPERATIVE SOCIETY LTD 0.95
13 NDEGE CHAI CO-OPERATIVE SAVINGS AND CREDIT SOCIETY LTD 0.83
14 STIMA CO-OPERATIVE SAVINGS AND CREDIT SOCIETY LTD 0.78
15 WAKENYA PAMOJA SAVINGS AND CREDIT CO-OPERATIVE SOCIETY LTD 0.75
16 NACICO SAVINGS AND CREDIT CO-OPERATIVE SOCIETY 0.72
17 CHEMELIL SAVINGS AND CREDIT CO-OPERATIVE SOCIETY LTD 0.69
18 BANKI KUU CO-OPERATIVE SAVINGS AND CREDIT SOCIETY LTD 0.66
19 MWALIMU CO-OPERATIVE SAVINGS & CREDIT SOCIETY LTD 0.64
54
20 MHASIBU CO-OPERATIVE SAVINGS AND CREDIT SOCIETY LTD 0.63
TOTAL 66.68

Think you are right!


Hi! Where did you get a list of the 20 top Sacco shareholders?
Ericsson
#110 Posted : Monday, July 30, 2012 7:11:12 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/4/2009
Posts: 10,702
Location: NAIROBI
@Hunderwear go back to class to learn basic mathematics;
CIS owns 75% of CIC.
Co-operative Bank owns 35.71% of CIS
35.71*0.75=26.78%.
25% of CIC insurance are the ones held by individual shareholders/available for trading.
In conclusion Co-operative bank owns 26.78% of CIC and not 35%
Wealth is built through a relatively simple equation
Wealth=Income + Investments - Lifestyle
mwekez@ji
#111 Posted : Monday, July 30, 2012 7:18:03 PM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 5/31/2011
Posts: 5,121
"During the year, the bank increased its shareholding in CIC Insurance Group Limited to 26.5% continuing to be the single largest shareholder." Co-op Bank 2011 Annual Report excerpt
Hunderwear
#112 Posted : Monday, July 30, 2012 7:27:07 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 4/14/2011
Posts: 639
Ericsson wrote:
@Hunderwear go back to class to learn basic mathematics;
CIS owns 75% of CIC.
Co-operative Bank owns 35.71% of CIS
35.71*0.75=26.78%.
25% of CIC insurance are the ones held by individual shareholders/available for trading.
In conclusion Co-operative bank owns 26.78% of CIC and not 35%



hii hisabati ilikuja na meli na its apparent I picked the wrong container.I already pointed it out.The list is in the IM
bird_man
#113 Posted : Tuesday, July 31, 2012 10:42:25 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/2/2006
Posts: 1,206
Location: Nairobi
Price @ 5.2sh today! DD 1.1M Vs SS 54K
I swear the registrar (Coop Bank) is hoarding our share certificates to ensure they are not immobilized now!
Formally employed people often live their employers' dream & forget about their own.
hisah
#114 Posted : Tuesday, July 31, 2012 11:27:43 AM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 8/4/2010
Posts: 8,977
bird_man wrote:
Price @ 5.2sh today! DD 1.1M Vs SS 54K
I swear the registrar (Coop Bank) is hoarding our share certificates to ensure they are not immobilized now!

Wow! So you mean the registrar is deliberately slowing the immobilization process to create a demand glut?! I thought CDSC is involved in this process. Or are both parties working together?!

Day one saw the range band suggest 4 - 7 to be the guard bounds. I expect the price to seesaw within this range - market making 101...

Why don't you start a thread of about this immobilization stalling to see how many other wazuans are suffering like yourself... Use wazua power to your advantage... #Bigstick...
$15/barrel oil... The commodities lehman moment arrives as well as Sovereign debt volcano!
Kausha
#115 Posted : Tuesday, July 31, 2012 11:56:52 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/8/2007
Posts: 808
Obviously it makes sense fro co-op registrars to hoard you certs. I thought part of CIC checklist as is standard procedure for every new listing before trading would have been to ensure all certificates whose owners wish them to be immobilized have been immobilized before the bell rings. What's going on is corruption and market manipulation of the highest order by some shareholders.

I also found it quite careless for CMA to allow CIC to have Co-op bank as a registrar yet out of the top 20 individual shareholders at CIC, 13 are either Co-operative Bank's Senior Directors, Senior Management or close relatives (proxies) of the above two sets of persons. Obviously there is no way this is arms length even assuming the highest levels of integrity of the above individuals. NSE is truly a viazi soko, there are very few rules at play..

Please Githae roll on Mugane for us...we need someone with good understanding and exposure of what a good functioning market should be like with all due respect to the other candidates!
e_kijana
#116 Posted : Tuesday, July 31, 2012 12:11:07 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/17/2009
Posts: 55
Kausha wrote:
Obviously it makes sense fro co-op registrars to hoard you certs. I thought part of CIC checklist as is standard procedure for every new listing before trading would have been to ensure all certificates whose owners wish them to be immobilized have been immobilized before the bell rings. What's going on is corruption and market manipulation of the highest order by some shareholders.

I also found it quite careless for CMA to allow CIC to have Co-op bank as a registrar yet out of the top 20 individual shareholders at CIC, 13 are either Co-operative Bank's Senior Directors, Senior Management or close relatives (proxies) of the above two sets of persons. Obviously there is no way this is arms length even assuming the highest levels of integrity of the above individuals. NSE is truly a viazi soko, there are very few rules at play..

Please Githae roll on Mugane for us...we need someone with good understanding and exposure of what a good functioning market should be like with all due respect to the other candidates!


These are irresponsible accusations. Is there anyone on Wazua who can help us? someone should go with their certs and immobilize and advise us how much time it will take. It should normally take 5-10 working days so lets see if this is really the bottleneck.

I still think its because there are few shares available and Wazees dont want to immobilize and Management/Directors will not be selling
hisah
#117 Posted : Tuesday, July 31, 2012 12:12:50 PM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 8/4/2010
Posts: 8,977
Kausha wrote:
Obviously it makes sense fro co-op registrars to hoard you certs. I thought part of CIC checklist as is standard procedure for every new listing before trading would have been to ensure all certificates whose owners wish them to be immobilized have been immobilized before the bell rings. What's going on is corruption and market manipulation of the highest order by some shareholders.

I also found it quite careless for CMA to allow CIC to have Co-op bank as a registrar yet out of the top 20 individual shareholders at CIC, 13 are either Co-operative Bank's Senior Directors, Senior Management or close relatives (proxies) of the above two sets of persons. Obviously there is no way this is arms length even assuming the highest levels of integrity of the above individuals. NSE is truly a viazi soko, there are very few rules at play..

Please Githae roll on Mugane for us...we need someone with good understanding and exposure of what a good functioning market should be like with all due respect to the other candidates!

WTH... Co-op is the registrar!? Now I see the manipulation clearly. Such a shame this...

So let's say someone wanted to sell on Day 1, that wanjiku is probably still trapped so many days later going by @bird_man's quote above despite submitting the certs days/weeks before listing!

CMA must be aware of this... Surely...!
$15/barrel oil... The commodities lehman moment arrives as well as Sovereign debt volcano!
Liv
#118 Posted : Tuesday, July 31, 2012 4:17:30 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/14/2006
Posts: 1,311
@Bird_man,
This share will behave like the Coop bank share. We tried to immobilize the certificates for a long time...when the share reached above shs 20. By the time this was completed.... the share price had started falling. then the market was flooded with supply.
hisah
#119 Posted : Tuesday, July 31, 2012 5:21:14 PM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 8/4/2010
Posts: 8,977
Liv wrote:
@Bird_man,
This share will behave like the Coop bank share. We tried to immobilize the certificates for a long time...when the share reached above shs 20. By the time this was completed.... the share price had started falling. then the market was flooded with supply.

Coop took almost 2yrs to trade 20/- from listing price of 9.50. You want to say it took you 2yrs to immobilize the certs?!



$15/barrel oil... The commodities lehman moment arrives as well as Sovereign debt volcano!
Liv
#120 Posted : Tuesday, July 31, 2012 5:29:58 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/14/2006
Posts: 1,311
hisah wrote:
Liv wrote:
@Bird_man,
This share will behave like the Coop bank share. We tried to immobilize the certificates for a long time...when the share reached above shs 20. By the time this was completed.... the share price had started falling. then the market was flooded with supply.

Coop took almost 2yrs to trade 20/- from listing price of 9.50. You want to say it took you 2yrs to immobilize the certs?!





@Hisa,
The interest to immobilize came when the share reached shs 15.00 - 18. You think of immobilizing and selling when you can make some good money.... not when the share has been listed.
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