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Church surrenders to State
Rank: New-farer Joined: 6/22/2010 Posts: 17 Location: rbi
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'religion imprisons the man god and prevents him from achieving his full potential' Albert Camus in 'The Rebel' “Daring ideas are like chessmen moved forward. They may be beaten, but they may start a winning game.” – Wolfgang Von Goethe .
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Rank: Elder Joined: 8/11/2010 Posts: 1,588
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The prediction is materializing. This is just the start  Quote:
Ms Mdivo’s group is building alliances with several members of Kenya’s Christian community to promote “anti-choice and anti-gay politicians” in the national elections, the Boston-based think tank says.
The East African CLJ used influential evangelical leaders such as Bishop Mark Kariuki of Deliverance Church in Kenya to gain access to political leaders, the report states.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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YesuWangu wrote:tycho wrote:
When Constantine took the sign of the cross, the Church grew powerful. ..........
That is what I am saying. A lot happened in the union between crowns and the church since Constantine. E.g. Clovis did exploits for the church in France, fought wars for God and exterminated peoples and deposed kings. But because of these centuries-long horrors of the dark ages, nations being newly established after that period expressly prohibited the union of church and state. The prime example is USA with its first amendment of the constitution. Of course currently it appears that the cross has been extinguished, effete (lol) but then again, the Hegelian principle at work. Like in a pendulum, to create a 'christian' condition in the society, allow / make the liberals to do their thing unhindered (amorality / immorality) and the moderates who make the majority will soon be fed up and demand tough action against it. Of course it goes without saying that the church will naturally spear head this and the politician who can deliver this will get the votes. So, as you can see from our society and the world over, the liberals are having their say and they are saying it LOUD, soon the church will have its way. This fatal blow, this rotting from within, will be healed. The liberals, in thought and action who want to think and act independently will go and that includes even those ones who still follow Luthers ideals. BTW, lol at 'It seems it cannot even chase a baby vampire away!'...... funny man you are!  Who is it that decides to let the pendulum swing? 'Whose word is it?'
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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kiio wrote:'religion imprisons the man god and prevents him from achieving his full potential' Albert Camus in 'The Rebel' Look at the Man God! His utterance is love! His mind constantly moving in love, why need he/she to ascribe to creeds, rituals, and all the marks of religion? The Man God is free! He is no longer seeking; he has found.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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tnesh wrote:tycho wrote:[quote=YesuWangu]
....Could it be that Christ never intended to have a religion at all?.... In the defn of religion we find that religion is the belief and worship of a supreme being, a further explanation is that religion is a SYSTEM of worshiping a supreme being. Jesus is the author of all Christianity but the Catholic Church is responsible for starting a system for the Christians (Post-bible). The Catholic church formed when the Roman state (Government) integrated with the Christian church. (What a genius political move to conquer the world) Follow history and realize that almost all churches (protestant) are fragments of systems that broke from the mother Catholic church due to dissent. The siasa that is in the “Christian”(please note the quotes) religion is immense, and unfortunately these has smeared the reputation of Christianity (please note NO quotes).
Realize that other religions have also been used politically. Islam is passed as law in many countries. Continents have been colonized by the power of religion. Basically religion is the most powerful way to control a people. Who is controlling 'a people?' Christ was political; in the sense that he was establishing a kingdom. Could this have been a kingdom of control? " . . . and you shall be free!" "Are you king of the Jews?" What a mocking question! Christ 'was' the King of the Universe! (See why He kept quiet?) What was his brand of politics? Or how would a Christian relate to his/her Kingdom?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 8/11/2010 Posts: 1,588
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tycho wrote:
Who is it that decides to let the pendulum swing?
'Whose word is it?'
Tyco, what a question! ! By the way, I just looove your literaly style......man god......lol.  Anyway, please allow me to refer my to back up in answering this important question? That way, when feelings (maybe not yours necessarily) get hurt, I will defend myself and say "Its not my narrative, I was also just reading it.".
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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@YesuWangu,
Thank you for the appreciative comments. Though I must hasten to say that if there's any beauty of style it has been elicited by you.
There's always some pain when thinking and talking about these matters, but the pain is one that we'd say is good.
You can check up with your 'back up' of course, though I suspect you have it all already.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 8/11/2010 Posts: 1,588
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Tycho, yes, I had it but I felt I still had to check again and choose my words carefully. The story starts centuries ago where we too must if we are to understand the present. 1. At first there was a gold head / lion also called Babylon. 2. Then there was a silver chest / bear / ram also called the kings of Media and Persia. 3. Then there was a brass hip / leopard / rough goat which was the king of Grecia. 4. Then there was iron legs / beast with iron teeth / some broken goat horns also called Rome. He is not named as 'Rome' but follow the sequence....(remember the series & sequences in primary school math?) The king with the baton at this present time, following this sequence, is observed to be using craft / deceit / cunning (does this include the Hegels principle, exhibits sensible christianity but isnt, etcetera?). The full narrative is found in the book Daniel. Our interest is chapter 8 around verse 20 to 25. I opine its this king, currently holding the primacy over the whole known world(5th paragraph). Its his word, he has the motive but no opportunity yet. Or is it being created? Dont we want to 'christianize' constitutions of countries and ban 'unchristian' behavior like abortion and homosexuality? I use 'he' to refer to a system, not a personality or individual or group of people. 'Christianity' will once again rule the world and will humble rulers like Henry III. Others wont be able to resist and will go out with a whimper just like Mikhail Gorbachev. The church is far from surrendering.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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YesuWangu wrote:Tycho, yes, I had it but I felt I still had to check again and choose my words carefully. The story starts centuries ago where we too must if we are to understand the present. 1. At first there was a gold head / lion also called Babylon. 2. Then there was a silver chest / bear / ram also called the kings of Media and Persia. 3. Then there was a brass hip / leopard / rough goat which was the king of Grecia. 4. Then there was iron legs / beast with iron teeth / some broken goat horns also called Rome. He is not named as 'Rome' but follow the sequence....(remember the series & sequences in primary school math?) The king with the baton at this present time, following this sequence, is observed to be using craft / deceit / cunning (does this include the Hegels principle, exhibits sensible christianity but isnt, etcetera?). The full narrative is found in the book Daniel. Our interest is chapter 8 around verse 20 to 25. I opine its this king, currently holding the primacy over the whole known world(5th paragraph). Its his word, he has the motive but no opportunity yet. Or is it being created? Dont we want to 'christianize' constitutions of countries and ban 'unchristian' behavior like abortion and homosexuality? I use 'he' to refer to a system, not a personality or individual or group of people.'Christianity' will once again rule the world and will humble rulers like Henry III. Others wont be able to resist and will go out with a whimper just like Mikhail Gorbachev. The church is far from surrendering. @YesuWangu, I am so grateful that you prayed for my comfort, as this conversation is shaking the whole structure of my being. And alas, now more than ever should I choose my speech carefully! 'He is a system with no humanity in it, and no personality.' This statement itself has personality! And therefore, the whole argument falls. On asking why you made the statement, I discovered that the book of Daniel states that this cunning King will fall 'without any human interference.' Could this be the reason? What would an impersonal system speak about? Why would it speak anyway? You are saying 'it is his word', what is your relation to his word? You are not speaking, you are reciting! But is an authentic word possible? Is this reciting authentic? 'Without human interference' could also mean exhaustion of the prevailing spirit, and the next Kingdom shall arise out of a resurgent spirit. This is the only way out. Why? If you and I are to have an authentic conversation, then we must care equally about each other, we must protect each other . . . we must invoke a personal system and we must be the players in it. Our word, must be the system's word. And we must surrender everything we can see and do, everything we have not seen, everything we have not heard, . . . everything we have not imagined. This system would qualify to be referred to as 'he'. He would have authenticity, and 'the pendulum' would be left to swing. But in this case the Church would still have to surrender. Why? The Church is founded on a narrative- orthodoxy, dogma, theology . . . while the authentic word, the word that rules is founded on a meta-narrative. Only a meta-narrative can express a resurgent human spirit in the face of multiculturalism. The Church has no authentic word for homosexuality, and abortion; otherwise why are there gay bishops? Why is it being ignored on contraception? How many years ago did someone exclaim, 'the Christian mind doesn't exist?' The bishop who prompted this thread is a no doubt well schooled on matters of faith, why was he rushing to the state in broad daylight for rescue when he knew very well that the person in charge took an oath with the bible? See how many wazuans supported the move?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 8/11/2010 Posts: 1,588
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What if I say that it will appear that the church surrenders to the state yet its the reverse? Remember 'he' is cunning. The state has certain instruments (e.g. of coercion) that the church doesnt control e.g. legislation and its enforcement. Therefore if the use of these instruments is for the gain of the church, what conclusion can be drawn other than that the church controls the state? Or at the very least, influences it? An example, if the state, with the copious support of deluded and misinformed tongue-speaking, grace-only, fire-calling, demon-binding, anointing-oil-loving, seed-sowing christian wazuans and citizens, viciously prosecute one and throws him in the slammer for what the church only audibly condemns , (e.g. abortion or homosexuality) can it be concluded that the church holds sway over the state? I think so. So at what issue will the prosecution end? It wont! The church will not cease to use the state and its instruments of coercion to implement all of its dogmas and theology in contrast to the God that they say they believe in, but do not. They will even legislate and enforce no shopping, buying and selling on Sunday! If I live in Germany, that will no longer be an option. The height of the ridiculous! The church has no authentic word for homosexuality and abortion and a plethora of other matters, unlike the meta-narrative it purports to be founded on. Therefore, it desperately needs assistance of and from the state to prop itself up. That is the point. The moral of story of the camel in the tent comes to mind. (Un)fortunately, there is nothing to stop this frantic search for sustenance from the civil authorities, with or without trickery. The bishop you saw played his part very well according to script. I, being the renegade that I am, will continue calling out to people within the church (all of them) to see its confusion and to get out fast lest they share in its breaking without human hands. Maybe its time I put the quotes on 'church'. @tycho, the 'church' will cheat the state and control it.
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