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Bob :'Safaricom a bigger, & more trusted, brand than the church'
Rank: Member Joined: 12/17/2011 Posts: 887
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Nabwire wrote:Now this is becoming ridiculous, I dont like half truths. So far you have attributed everything good to atheism and everything bad to theism. According to you, the advances in science and medicine are attributed to atheists!!! You and I both know thats a lie. You are constantly blaming God for actions of man, I will again let you know that there is a big ddifference between God and religion, blaming actions of pastors on God is very far fetched. It is ok to believe what you believe in, but dont make a mockery of what others believe in. You said "we are not weak minded, violence is for weak minded people" I will have you know that Lenin, Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, Georges Clemenceau, Mussolini, Jose Gaspar Rodriguez de Francia were all atheists source http://en.wikipedia.org/...politics_and_law#Africa Pride comes before a fall, the earth was here years before you got here and it will be here years after, so to think you have all the answers figured out is not wisdom. I will chance to say that George Bush is an undercover atheist, your logic that atheists dont condone violence is not true. This thread is still running because your theist friends keep asking questions adn I feel obligated to answer them....Atheists don't condone violence...When have you ever heard atheists killing christians or muslims or gays or Jews? That's a staple of religion....George Bush is a christian man...You are lying....Stop trying to make stuff up....he is methodist, stop lying..It's ok to debate, but when you start making up lies to suit your needs, then you lose all decorum...
And Lenin, Mao, Stalin etc did not start wars out of atheism, those wars were based on communism and political survival....
Nobody is being prideful, I am just saying that your god does not exist. If that is pride to you then so be it...I have all the answers figured out, speak for yourself, if you don't have answers figured out in your life about religion then that's your bad. I have all the answers I need, so please don't put words in my mouth. I 100% unequivocally have my answers figured out, and that's why I have no doubts in my convictions like you and theists do.
Here are some religious quotes from George Bush.
President Bush is a Methodist and has been very open about the role of faith in his life. Below are selections from recent speeches and interviews in which he mentions his faith or religious topics.
On God, War, and Freedom
"Freedom is on the march in this world. I believe everybody in the Middle East desires to live in freedom. I believe women in the Middle East want to live in a free society. I believe mothers and fathers want to raise their children in a free and peaceful world. I believe all these things, because freedom is not America's gift to the world, freedom is the almighty God's gift to each man and woman in this world."
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Speech in Pennsylvania, October 22, 2004
"...The God I know is one that promotes peace and freedom. But I get great sustenance from my personal relationship. That doesn't make me think I'm a better person than you are, by the way. Because one of the great admonitions in the Good Book is, don't try to take a speck out of your eye if I've got a log in my own."
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Interview by Radio and Television Ireland, June 24, 2004
"I believe that God has planted in every human heart the desire to live in freedom. And even when that desire is crushed by tyranny for decades, it will rise again."
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State of the Union Address, January 20, 2004
"The cause we serve is right, because it is the cause of all mankind. The momentum of freedom in our world is unmistakable--and it is not carried forward by our power alone. We can trust in that greater power who guides the unfolding of the years. And in all that is to come, we can know that His purposes are just and true."
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State of the Union Address, January 20, 2004
"Americans do not presume to equate God's purposes with any purpose of our own...."[Prayer] teaches us to trust, to accept that God's plan unfolds in his time, not our own."
Read more: http://www.beliefnet.com...aith.aspx#ixzz21fBJrGii
Whether there is a difference between god and religion is inconsequential, they are both detrimental to society.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/9/2006 Posts: 1,502
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Theists de worshippers should do thoroughly search before misleading others. So when did George Bush became an atheist???. Disowning One of your own. So the fanatics destroying ancient Timbuktu shrines are atheists ? . Please be informed that even if it can be proved your god exists , which definitely nobody has ever done. He will be a racist of the highest order. work to prosper
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/22/2011 Posts: 1,325
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Its interesting how you give excuses for Stalin, Lenin and Mao, that they didnt start wars because of religion, I could say the same thing about pastors. You cant nitpick when it comes to atheists, but use a broad paint brush when it comes to theists. Ok so what about the rest of the violent atheists? I thought atheists are not weak minded coz violence is for weak minded people. Whats your excuse about Pol Pot? Mussolini?
You didnt have to go and quote Bush for me, I know what he said. He is afterall a politician, and will do and say anything to get elected. Or did you expect him to publicize that he is a member of the Skull and Bones society? Ofcourse not coz he would lose the crucial Midwest vote.
Im surprised neither of you have gone the Hitler way, he was infact a Catholic. I would have been more impressed by your arguments then. I have given you the ammnition, lets see if you will pull the trigger.
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Rank: Member Joined: 12/17/2011 Posts: 887
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Nabwire wrote:Its interesting how you give excuses for Stalin, Lenin and Mao, that they didnt start wars because of religion, I could say the same thing about pastors. You cant nitpick when it comes to atheists, but use a broad paint brush when it comes to theists. Ok so what about the rest of the violent atheists? I thought atheists are not weak minded coz violence is for weak minded people. Whats your excuse about Pol Pot? Mussolini?
You didnt have to go and quote Bush for me, I know what he said. He is afterall a politician, and will do and say anything to get elected. Or did you expect him to publicize that he is a member of the Skull and Bones society? Ofcourse not coz he would lose the crucial Midwest vote.
Im surprised neither of you have gone the Hitler way, he was infact a Catholic. I would have been more impressed by your arguments then. I have given you the ammnition, lets see if you will pull the trigger.
Nabwire, atheists don't kill anyone....We don't have a god to fight for..We don't have any reason to start a war...Absolutely zero reason...For what?????.Why would we start a war???All those guys you are saying are atheists, pol pot, musolini, etc, I don't think they were atheists...It's easy to label somebody this or that, because they are not here to defend themselves, so I take your assertions with a grain of salt...Atheists don't have a desire for war, what would be be fighting for? We don't believe in any gods Nabwire, religious people go into wars because they all want to prove that their god and their religion is bigger and better than the rest, that's the issue with religions, they all have a complex, some have a bigger chip on their shoulders than others and they are all out to make a point and prove that their god is greater...That's a recipe for disaster....As an atheist, I don't have any problem with any religion, because I think they are silly and I know gods don't exist anyway, so why would I start a war over something that doesn't exist in the first place? I just don't get your drift on that....I want you to quote me one act of violence that has ever been attributed to atheism...Just one...Tell me when atheists have ever banded together and attacked muslims or christians or Jews, etc....We don't have time for such nonsense Nabwire, we understand that there are better things to do in life than killing other human beings just because of their religion....That is the silliest stupidest thing to ever befall mankind, to kill somebody because they don't believe in what you believe in? how absurd is that?....Just amazing...I get pissed off because I am in the middle of the cross fire when al qaeda and al shabaab and Christians in Northern Ireland and all the other psychos are killing each other...I don't want to die over some stupid stuff like that, but those idiots put my life in danger over some stupid stuff...That's what atheists hate the most...People losing lives over nonsense.
You are a conspiracy theorist Nabwire....Bush was not fronting to be christian so as to win the evangelical votes, Bush is a christian man...You have some very improbable conspiracy theories, but I understand, you are just trying to gain mileage on this discourse....But make no mistake, Bush is a very religious man...He is still involved in the church now that he is not the president anymore, if he was just fronting for votes, don't you think that he would have gave up the front now that he is retired and doesn't need the votes anymore?
Anyway, I think it's time we retired this thread....To each their own...I tell people to seek happiness in their lives..If believing in a god makes you happy, then by all means do what makes you happy...Life is too short to squabble like we are about religions...The main thing is to seek something that makes you happy...I can respect that religion and gods help theists cope with life, I choose to live my life differently obviously, but again, if it makes you happy, then go for it...Praying is a coping mechanisms and it gives people hope, and hope is maybe the best thing in a human beings life.....Anyway, am done with this thread, seems like we have reached an impasse and we can never see eye to eye. Sometimes it's more honorable to respectfully agree to disagree and move on to other things.....It's been real Nabwire, I am out....
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Rank: New-farer Joined: 7/16/2011 Posts: 59
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Quote:Mao and Stalin killed because of ideological disagreement, they did not kill because of atheism, they were motivated by communism. Thus, to lay these crimes at the foot of atheism is simply incorrect Humanity toyed with a world without religion in the last century,we almost lost it.Remember ,belief in eugenics is what they practiced. Quote:
I beg to differ, always rely on logic. Logic teaches you to use your brain, to ask questions, to seek answers, faith teaches you to believe with no questions asked. That's why pastors and priests are fleecing people unabated because theists have been told not to use logic, to rely on faith and ask no questions. Always ask questions, always...
You ,once again have a misplaced perception of logic.Assess yourself quite a number of decisions/actions you make are not logical e.g When you enter a matatu after and you've sat.You most probably say, "I felt like seating here."You did not seat after coming up with a list of merits/demerits,SWOT analysis,mathematical equations etc. Logic can sometimes make one extremely inefficient! However I appreciate your wish for all of us to embrace that inquisitive attitude. hamburglar, Several times you have mentioned you are required to worship God.Where did you get such a perception? After God created Adam did He tell him or tend to the earth? Quote:
Nabwire, my rants are against this make belief god that can't help his children when they need him the most. What's his deal? Why can't he just give us a cure for cancer or AIDS? What perverse
satisfaction does he derive from seeing kids starve to death and yet he is supposed to be omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent?
You have listed these 3 x-teristics however you forgot Transcendence.For God to exist He must be Transcendent i.e He does not involve Himself with creation unless asked to do so. Quote:
I would make this world perfect on Day 1. There would be no diseases no conflicts, no suffering just paradise and I would do all these without anybody having to ask for it....I would just do it, if I had the power to make this world paradise I would do it instead of playing with people's heads "working in mysterious ways", please, there is no time for playing mysterious games while people continue to suffer, what's the point of being mysterious and kids are starving to death every 5 minutes?
This is has already been done.God has offered grace. Quote:
Or as theists say, god answers prayers, then why hasn't he answered the thousands of prayers for a cure for cancer yet? Or is he working in mysterious ways? I have lost a dear one to cancer, I saw her suffer through pain, and yet god was busy sending people to burn to death and didn't have time to save her? What pleasure does he get by sending people to burn for eternity? (I don't believe in hell,
but just for the sake of argument)...What kind of evil person would put his "children" through such torture for ETERNITY?
God(of the bible) will not burn people in hell.Nowhere is this mentioned.But that doesn't mean people will not burn in hell. Quote:Tokyo,
We should agree religion or lack of it mystery will never be solved. As you are reading or typing, somebody innocent is dying somewhere . Well, the best evidence if God exists is to stop and punish perpetrators. Has he/she done it??? That is neglecting his duties.
All those believers misled by whites and Arabs should better be logical with realities. Punishing these perpetrators might not be the work of God.It is primarily our work. Quote:Well, according to your bible, it says that he killed people in Soddom and Gommorha and also drowned people after Naoh left town in the ark...So, from my understanding, your god has killed people.. He throws a tantrum like a 2 year old and kills people every time he feels slighted.. Those not with us today are not sleep, they are DEAD. Wrong these people were killed by a possible volcano after some angels visited the area.Only God foreknew what was to take place. You keep referring to the suffering in this world ,however ,Imagine God can say to you,"Look I have undergone the same suffering ,yet I was innocent .How could I be a perpetrator yet I was victim?" You questions are easy ,especially, if you can consider that if God exists He can create beings who have free will. sorry for lengthy post
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Rank: Member Joined: 12/17/2011 Posts: 887
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Humanity toyed with a world without religion in the last century,we almost lost it.Remember ,belief in eugenics is what they practiced.
You are on drugs.....Almost lost the world because humanity toyed with a world without religion? ..How so? How did we almost lose the world? lol, get real man...The world can never be lost ever, with or without religion....The world has a better chance of getting lost with religion more than without religion...The way religious people are killing each other poses a greater risk to the world than not having religion.
You ,once again have a misplaced perception of logic.Assess yourself quite a number of decisions/actions you make are not logical e.g When you enter a matatu after and you've sat.You most probably say, "I felt like seating here."You did not seat after coming up with a list of merits/demerits,SWOT analysis,mathematical equations etc.
Logic can sometimes make one extremely inefficient!
Logic will never make you inefficient, logic means you are using your brain, you are thinking, faith is what makes people inefficient because they cease using their brains and believe that some sly pastor can actually perform miracles...This happens everyday...Any logical man would know that that is hogwash, but theists have faith that it can happen....Logic will never make you inefficient, it makes you a thinker. faith makes you a believer, believe in anything you are told by your scam artist pastors....That's the difference. When is the last time you saaw atheists gathered in a place to witness a "miracle"? never going to happen, ever, because atheists use reason to navigate through life...Our reasoning and logic tells us that no mortal man can make a cripple walk or straighten a woman's crooked mouth...Lol, we are too smart for that stuff because we use LOGIC. As for you theists, well, your faith will always make you easy prey to these conmen...
However I appreciate your wish for all of us to embrace that inquisitive attitude.
hamburglar,
Several times you have mentioned you are required to worship God.Where did you get such a perception?
I got the perception from theists..I see it everyday with even my closest friends are drunk with worshipping this god guy..People are worshipping this god every minute, it's not a perception, it's reality...Some of my friends even say a prayer before they drink the first beer at happy hour..Thi s god has them in shackles, completely imprisoned...lol
After God created Adam did He tell him or tend to the earth?
God did not create anybody....If he did create Adam and Eve, so then this god must be really perveted because going by the creation angle, it means that since Adam and Eve had two sons, then for life to continue, there must have been procreation....This is disturbing to even think that maybe Eve had children with his sons....So, the idea that God created Adam is ludicrous..Man evolved and we are still evolving my friend....Mordern day man has evolved from the early man to where we are now with technology and everything else....400 years from now, man will be much more evolved and much more advanced....
You have listed these 3 x-teristics however you forgot Transcendence.For God to exist He must be Transcendent i.e He does not involve Himself with creation unless asked to do so.
Why doesn't he involve himself with creations and yet this same creations of his need him desperately if he is there? Is he a snob? Do we have to ask him to help mankind seeing as human beings need any help they can get in this cruel catastrophe of a world? That should be a no brainer....You mean to tell me that he has taken a hands off approach and just sits up there and watches kids starve to death because we need to ask him to intervene.....WTF? Do we really need to ask him to help dying kids? Wacha mchezo man....If he does not involve himself with creation, then he is a snob and he needs to get off his high horse and start doing something, anything that can help his "children"...There is no time for him to just chill and watch people suffer just because he is trascedent...He can shove the transcedence up his ass and get to work....
This is has already been done.God has offered grace.
Where is the grace that he has offered...Have you looked at the state of the world lately? Where exactly is this grace? This world is so messed up that the mere mention of grace is laughable...It really is...
God(of the bible) will not burn people in hell.Nowhere is this mentioned.But that doesn't mean people will not burn in hell.
Okay, there is no need to honor your statement with a reply...Did you just say that people will burn in hell? How old are you dude? Do you still believe in that nonsense of heaven and hell? Stop being so naive...THERE IS NO HEAVEN OR HELL....Those are just scare tactics, but some of us are too smart to be scared by this nonsensical drivel...lol, so where will this god (of the bible) burn people? Is there a secret place from hell that he will burn us? I can't wait to see this secret place...Plus dude, what will burning people and causing agony help him with? is he going to feel more of a man when he sees people writhing in pain for etrenity? Such nonsense is unbelievable....
Punishing these perpetrators might not be the work of God.It is primarily our work.
Dude, only saddists punish people...Get the violence out of your life...Punishment, eternal fire, jeez, you guys need to move away from saddism...Looks like theists just love to punish and inflict pain...What is this obsession you theists have with punishment and fire?
Wrong these people were killed by a possible volcano after some angels visited the area.Only God foreknew what was to take place.
They were killed by a fire according to your bible, I would have pulled out the verse in your bible that specifically say that they were burnt to death, but I don't have the time...So, stop trying to twist the story to defend your god, it is what it is, your bible says that your god burned down the two cities and everybody that lived there that had disobeyed him...Then you say that god foreknew that people would be killed (let's say it's a volcano), why didn'the intervene if he foreknew? Does he derive pleasure in seeing people die...If he foreknew and could had stopped this "volcano" why didn't he save his "children" from this horrible death? Your god has some serious issues dude, looks like he loves to see people die horrific deaths.
Who cares if he was a victim or perpetrator, we don't care...Thsi god of yours has way too many excuses but we don't need his excuses right now, we need actions...Excuses are for people who can't stand on their own two feet...I am hoping that this god of yours is strong enough to be able to move forward from this victim excuse and get over it....There is no time for complaints...So what if he was a victim anyway? Should we start shedding tears for him? He is god, I don't expect for him to complain, who did he suffer under? I don't get it...Was there somebody who made this god of yours suffer? When did that happen?
You questions are easy ,especially, if you can consider that if God exists He can create beings who have free will.
How is it free will is he already know what you are going to turn up? He is all-knowing, right? So he already knows the choices we are going to make even before we are born, so how is that free will...And why would he put man in a situation where he has to choose and then punish him for making the choice that he felt was best for him...If he wanted everybody to worship him then he should not have created this free will you keep talking about, he should have just made everybody worship him...It's like asking a kid to select between two pieces of candy and when the kid choosed the one that tastes good to him, you punish him for making that choice yet you gave him a choice to find what he likes....I am a good guy, so are you telling me that since I did not kiss this god's ass that I am going to burn in hell anyway? Open up your mind dude, days of living in fear are over....You will not burn in eternal fire if you start thinking fr yourself..lol...
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/17/2010 Posts: 572
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@ hamburglar, I agree with your assertions on god and religion, I wil add this, humanity is hopelessly conditioned and indoctrinated with a plethora of thesis in favour or against theories that attempt to explain life and the human experience but it all comes down to personal choices because one who wields a formed opinion about a particular topic is not easily swayed to abandon their belief hence the back and forth on this thread, however, it is upon the individual to mete what works for him/her and go with it, if god is for you then so be it and if you dont buy the god argument then so be it too but it all comes down to our own personal choice on the topic, personaly I dont buy the god argument and am with @ hamburglar on this but the rest can pick what works for them, so people choose what works for you and tolerate various opinions but dont be adversarial about it. peace people ours is a vivid world! 'One headache for famous medieval holy people was that someone might murder you to acquire your body parts for the relics trade'
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/22/2011 Posts: 1,325
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hamburglar wrote:
Like you say, in the US, such lawsuits are common but that doesn't make it right..Just because it's done often in the US does not justify it, there are idiots too here in the US incase you didn't know that, so not everything from the US should be glorified and emulated blindly..Integrity is a lost virtue in our society. We need to get some of it back. I just couldnt ignore this, very sound advice, and you should take your own advice. Cant remember where, but you wrote that progressive nations have rules to protect homosexuals, but backward nations like Kenya dont. Again you should take your own advice, not everything the US does should be glorified. I actually dont have a problem with homosexuals having their rights, my problem is when we are expected to accord them their rights because the US is doing just that.
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Rank: Member Joined: 12/17/2011 Posts: 887
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Nabwire wrote:hamburglar wrote:
Like you say, in the US, such lawsuits are common but that doesn't make it right..Just because it's done often in the US does not justify it, there are idiots too here in the US incase you didn't know that, so not everything from the US should be glorified and emulated blindly..Integrity is a lost virtue in our society. We need to get some of it back. I just couldnt ignore this, very sound advice, and you should take your own advice. Cant remember where, but you wrote that progressive nations have rules to protect homosexuals, but backward nations like Kenya dont. Again you should take your own advice, not everything the US does should be glorified. I actually dont have a problem with homosexuals having their rights, my problem is when we are expected to accord them their rights because the US is doing just that. I completely agree with your point...
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