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Bob :'Safaricom a bigger, & more trusted, brand than the church'
Rank: Member Joined: 12/17/2011 Posts: 887
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Nabwire wrote:OK point noted about Kenyan mentality.
Ofcourse you are skewing the debate coz its not true that atheists question everything and theists dont. Atheists dont question the possiblity of what if I am wrong and there is a God afterall, they assume that their beliefs are set in stone. I get your point about blind faith, but I am a theist who questions just about everything!! Actually the only thing atheists question is the existence of God, its almost like they want to convince themselves so bad that there is no God, thus the never ending debates. If I believed that something didnt exist, lie Santa Clause for example, I wouldnt waste my time justifying my beliefs. I think this is the part where theists wonder atheists dwell so much on this issue. You have your perception I have mine.
About money, it is an illusion. I dont know where you pulled out the money is evil line, you are assuming that since I believe in God I must think money is evil. Actually this is a Christian thing, again religion brought this, coz Jews and Muslims actually encourage people to make as much money as possible. Anyways I didnt say money is an illusion coz of my faith, I know it is coz it is just a piece of paper and your attitude and action towards it is what determines whther you will have more of it or less of it. Thats wh there are so many lottery winners who end up broke and destitute. Money is an illusion, that doesnt mean that it is bad. Nabwire, atheists actually do not bother anybody..You theists are the ones who keep shoving your erligion down our throats...Theists don't even care what is going on at a particular event, they just show up and "demand" to pray without even considering that some people could be of different religions or maybe even be atheists....I have been to numerous functions, birthdays, baby showers, graduations and there is always four or five people that want to pray every 20 minutes..It's lile gol-lee, isn't one prayer enough? Like seriously, how many times do they need to pray? Atheists don't bother anybody, and the main reason I am evn here is because somebody yanked my chain and before I knew it I was in a full fledged debate...I let people be, theists don't...I go to functions and everybody wants to know why I don't go to church, why I don't come for prayer meetings, it's almost like they don't respect other people's choices....You can't go anywhere without somebody trying to preac to you and trying to tell you about how god has been good to them...Am like, good for you if your god has been good to you, you don't need to tell the world, isn't that between you and your god? lol...These religious people are a piece of work....You can't even enjoy a quiet Saturday morning at your digs without having some cooky jehovah's witness looney come to your door to preach more drivel to you....So, no, atheists don't care, we do our thing and let you religius people kill each other while we sit back and just feel sorry for you...I as an atheist feel sorry for the religious people....They are so misguided....We are not trying to convince ourselves that there is no god Nabwire, we KNOW there is no god...We absolutely, 100% KNOW there is no god...No doubt about it.
Nabwire, you mentioned that atheists are more educated and affluent than theists, you think that's a coincidence? There is a correlation there..Most people become more sucessful after they renounce gods....You engage your mind more when you release yourself from the shackles and fears of gods...I know for a fact that atheists on average have a higher IQ than theists...These things are not coincidences, it's a testament (pun intended) to what reason and logic can do for you as opposed to faith and religion....I feel sorry for my theists friends who put all their trust in a MIA god instead of believing in themselves.....But once again, we all have a choice, I made mine and you guys made yours....All the best.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/22/2011 Posts: 1,325
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You have a knack for putting words in my mouth! I didnt mention that atheists are more educated than theists, thats your invention. I said on average atheists are well educated, that doesnt mean that theists are less educated, there is no inverse relationship in my observation. And you completely missed my point, I meant atheists always have to justify/ defend their beliefs, I dont bother defending why I dont believe in Santa or Haloween no matter how much these weirdos try to convince me ( ok maybe not Santa)
By the way the airport story, if you ask the lady, her miracle did happen. She played you and you didnt even figure it out, I bet you anything if you pulled away from the offer to drop her off at the airport, she would have made plans on how to pay the extra luggage or would have left some of the stuff behind. Maybe Im just a cynic.
Anyways all the best in your quest
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Rank: Member Joined: 12/17/2011 Posts: 887
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Nabwire wrote:You have a knack for putting words in my mouth! I didnt mention that atheists are more educated than theists, thats your invention. I said on average atheists are well educated, that doesnt mean that theists are less educated, there is no inverse relationship in my observation. And you completely missed my point, I meant atheists always have to justify/ defend their beliefs, I dont bother defending why I dont believe in Santa or Haloween no matter how much these weirdos try to convince me ( ok maybe not Santa)
By the way the airport story, if you ask the lady, her miracle did happen. She played you and you didnt even figure it out, I bet you anything if you pulled away from the offer to drop her off at the airport, she would have made plans on how to pay the extra luggage or would have left some of the stuff behind. Maybe Im just a cynic.
Anyways all the best in your quest Nah, I am wayyy too smart to be played....I am usually smarter than most people, lol, it might sound a little cocky but I prefer the word confident better...But even if that were true and she was really playing me, What a lousy way that would be to have to go through life living on th edge and hoping to play somebody like that. That must be a shitty miracle to have to stress all day about what's going to happen up until the last minute...Theists can keep those miracles. Before I agreed to take her to the airport, I evaluated all the options, including the fact that I could have had to come to her aid...The much that I know about her is that she is one of those people that have been dumbed down by blind faith to the point where she is literally just not very smart. And I love her, don't get me wrong, she is a dear friend, but fact is she is not the sharpest tool in the draw, she thinks that god should have to pay for her rent and food and everything else just because she is a good servant of the lord....To her, everything is in god's hands, and then she wonders why her life is so full of struggles....It's kind of sad for me to have to witness such cognitive dissonance from my friends.
Because of her decision to leave everything to god she couldn't cope with life here and that's why she packed her shit and left for Kenya coz god was not "blessing" her enough...That's why I say blind faith is dangerous, naive and stupid....That day, I intentionally went to the check-in counter because I do have a heart and I had a feeling that she was going to run into trouble and she proved me right.....I could have just left, but I knew the kind of person that she is and I knew that she WILL eventually need some help and that's why i went in with her, out of compassion for her naivette....
So, if she expects miracles like that to happen everyday for her, then that must be a sorry way to live her life expecting people to come to her aid everyday....To me, those miracles can go to hell, if i ever found myself in that situation, I would have made sure that I had my shit in order before I left for the airport..And that's what I have been trying to explain to theists all along, the difference between logic and faith and just what impact it can have in one's life...One is real the other is unreal.....Eff the miracles, if people like her use their heads in the first place, they wouldn't need "miracles" to happen at the last minute......But that's just me. I see shit differently than most people, and I coulnd't be happier with how I approach life..To me, the way I see life as an atheist devoid of these gods is the real "blessing".
Anyway Nabwire,it's been real having this debate with you, I know you undrstand my point of view, you are a smart chick (I got it right this time, lol) but at the end of the day, life is what we make it....If one wants to leave it all to god, that's their prerogative, they have every right to do that, as long as they are happy with the "blessings"....I have officially retired from this thread, people should just do what makes them happy, that's the bottom line...
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Rank: Hello Joined: 5/29/2012 Posts: 2
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@Harmbuglar, you have tried, but your half-answers to my case have done nothing to dispel it. I think you are being dishonest in claiming that there is no evidence for God, yet there is abundant evidence in philosophy, science and history. Get a book and start reading. You can start here:http://www.existence-of-god.com/first-cause-argument.html Though I doubt you will because hardcore atheists like you have a prejudgment that God doesn't exist, and whatever you tell them doesn't matter, so much for objectivity of science, which they so much "worship". I had hoped you will be different, but how wrong I was! For starters, if God doesn't exist, why is there something instead of nothing?
Stop running away from the argument and blabbering "There is no God" when you have no evidence against the existence of God. Like I said, you are not as old as the earth and you haven't searched every nook and crany of space to say that for sure there is no God. And that's why, if you are intellectually honest, you will admit that you need faith just as much as the religious person. For definition of faith, you can easily look up the word in the wiktionary or in your primary school dictionary. But let me do you the favour: Faith is "a feeling, conviction, or belief that something is true or real, without having evidence". So, going back to your premise,
"I don't need to prove that God doesn't exist, you can't prove something that is not there... The burden of proof always lies with whoever is making a positive existential claim - in this case, the theist"
it shows that you are not willing to consider any evidence for the existence of God, and you have already prejudged that God doesn't exist. That needs so much faith, mate! And the burden of proof lies with you. An objective mind is one which is wiling to look at the evidence and let it guide him wherever it will. And only then, will I have a meaningful debate with you.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/9/2006 Posts: 1,502
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We should agree religion or lack of it mystery will never be solved. As you are reading or typing, somebody innocent is dying somewhere . Well, the best evidence if God exists is to stop and punish perpetrators. Has he/she done it??? That is neglicting his duties. All those believers misled by whites and Arabs should better be logical with realities. work to prosper
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/19/2011 Posts: 1,694
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chavz wrote:@Harmbuglar, you have tried, but your half-answers to my case have done nothing to dispel it. I think you are being dishonest in claiming that there is no evidence for God, yet there is abundant evidence in philosophy, science and history. Get a book and start reading. You can start here:http://www.existence-of-god.com/first-cause-argument.html Though I doubt you will because hardcore atheists like you have a prejudgment that God doesn't exist, and whatever you tell them doesn't matter, so much for objectivity of science, which they so much "worship". I had hoped you will be different, but how wrong I was! For starters, if God doesn't exist, why is there something instead of nothing?
Stop running away from the argument and blabbering "There is no God" when you have no evidence against the existence of God. Like I said, you are not as old as the earth and you haven't searched every nook and crany of space to say that for sure there is no God. And that's why, if you are intellectually honest, you will admit that you need faith just as much as the religious person. For definition of faith, you can easily look up the word in the wiktionary or in your primary school dictionary. But let me do you the favour: Faith is "a feeling, conviction, or belief that something is true or real, without having evidence". So, going back to your premise,
"I don't need to prove that God doesn't exist, you can't prove something that is not there... The burden of proof always lies with whoever is making a positive existential claim - in this case, the theist"
it shows that you are not willing to consider any evidence for the existence of God, and you have already prejudged that God doesn't exist. That needs so much faith, mate! And the burden of proof lies with you. An objective mind is one which is wiling to look at the evidence and let it guide him wherever it will. And only then, will I have a meaningful debate with you. Ditto!!!
“People will believe a big lie sooner than a little one, and if you repeat it frequently enough, people will sooner or later believe it.” ― Walter C. Langer
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Rank: Elder Joined: 9/23/2010 Posts: 2,225 Location: Sundowner,Amboseli
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Tokyo wrote:We should agree religion or lack of it mystery will never be solved. As you are reading or typing, somebody innocent is dying somewhere . Well, the best evidence if God exists is to stop and punish perpetrators. Has he/she done it??? That is neglicting his duties. All those believers misled by whites and Arabs should better be logical with realities. The Kingdom of God didnt come to Africa via the mzungus and muarabus. Actually, the Kingdom of God has always been within us!Luke 17:20-21. Atleast, as a member of the Agikuyu, i have always known that! We have always known that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, something really lacking in your posts & that of @Humburger, despite your high IQs! Truly the race is not to the swift Nor the battle to the strong Nor bread to the knowledgeable Nor riches to men of understanding Nor favor to men of skill But time & chance happen to them all!Ecl 7:11 @SufficientlyP
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/9/2006 Posts: 1,502
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The best you can do is maintaining your ancestors religion. Don't pollute following the exotic because it's fashionable and sophiscated . I can agree if you quote Mumbi not Luke the Jew . work to prosper
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Rank: Elder Joined: 9/23/2010 Posts: 2,225 Location: Sundowner,Amboseli
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Tokyo wrote:
The best you can do is maintaining your ancestors religion. Don't pollute following the exotic because it's fashionable and sophiscated . I can agree if you quote Mumbi not Luke the Jew .
Well,i hope you know that the Mumbi constitution(read religion), just like the British constitution is not written. And if you are from the Mumbi's, then you must be aware that the Mumbi religion & the Jewish one have so many similarities. Infact, we have guys called Kabiru's loosely referring to Hebrews, and believed to be descendants of the jews. So because the Mumbi religion isn't written, God in His wisdom (which i pray you will seek for) put a burden to the Jews to record it, for future generations, for He had exalted His Word, above His name! How great! @SufficientlyP
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Rank: Elder Joined: 8/11/2010 Posts: 1,588
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I just had to butt in this convo. Its interesting. Quote:Nabwire, my rants are against this make belief god that can't help his children when they need him the most. What's his deal? Why can't he just give us a cure for cancer or AIDS? What perverse
satisfaction does he derive from seeing kids starve to death and yet he is supposed to be omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent? Why can't he just end the suffering that his children are enduring? Why can't he just get rid of sin and make this world a better place? I am not sure what his priorities are...It seems like he is more concerned with keeping tabs and sending people that did not kiss his ass to hell. Looks like his main priority is for people to please him, for people to ask (pray, beg) for shit that he can just provide without having to be asked.
Cure for cancer and AIDS etc- You know what you need to do. He has given instructions in regard to healthy living. Follow them and you will have no need for a cure for you will never get cancer & AIDS. Even if you get sick, the elements in the periodic table from which cures can be made are found on this earth (see reply in paragraph about prayers). As for kids staving to death, well, there is always someone who could have prevented it but did not (again see reply in paragraph about prayers). Food does not get raptured up to heaven you know. You seem to be urging Him to take some drastic action to be a dictator.
Why do we have to ask him for shit and he can already see how people are suffering? It just doesn't make sense. All he cares about is who is worshipping him on Sunday and who is begging him for shit and then he sits on his ass and does nothing about it? C'mon now, if that god were me and I had all these powers that theists claim he has, I would make this world perfect on Day 1. There would be no diseases, no conflicts, no suffering just paradise and I would do all these without anybody having to ask for it....I would just do it, if I had the power to make this world paradise I would do it instead of playing with people's heads "working in mysterious ways", please, there is no time for playing mysterious games while people continue to suffer, what's the point of being mysterious and kids are starving to death every 5 minutes?
The role of human input into diseases, conflicts and suffering is very plain and open and undeniable, yet still denied. Humans make (or fail to make) all the decisions and implements relevant to start and spread diseases, conflicts, wars and suffering yet recognition goes to another. The humans will try harder until their efforts and contributions in these matters are finally recognized. In this paragraph, you still want Him to be a dictator and take action without 2nd opinion.
Or as theists say, god answers prayers, then why hasn't he answered the thousands of prayers for a cure for cancer yet? Or is he working in mysterious ways? I have lost a dear one to cancer, I saw her suffer through pain, and yet god was busy sending people to burn to death and didn't have time to save her? What pleasure does he get by sending people to burn for eternity? (I don't believe in hell, but just for the sake of argument)...What kind of evil person would put his "children" through such torture for ETERNITY?
He is more than willing to answer prayers. Maybe answers to some of those prayers depend on you and so and so to reach the person praying. You dont live in a vacuum, you know. What if you or someone else decided to do A instead of B, then because of the A you did, the next person did A1 and so on until the nth person in the queue did A23, then the person praying could have got his A24 answer. Sometimes or many times someone breaks the chain and the last person does not get his A24 and gets Z instead. What makes you think he has not answered the 'thousands of prayers' this way.
This god guy has some serious serious issues....And that's why to a logical person, this god does not exist, you Nabwire are just living in fear, you think if you dismiss thsi god and start thinking for yourself that something bad might happen to you as attested by your sentiment that the carpet can be pulled from underneath me for not worshipping god....I am not afraid of losing everything, it just means that I have to start over...Life goes on....But I refuse to live in fear or to kiss somebody's ass in the hopes that he doesn't pull the rug from underneath me....
Anybody can pull the rug from underneath you. Even me. For example what if I find you and stab you through the heart with a knife? Or I pre arrange things so that you loose your assets. God will have nothing to do with that, it will be me and my hands that did the acts and pulled the rug. (Again see reply in paragraph about human actions). In this paragraph, you accuse Him of dictatorship over something I just might as well have done.
Besides, even if this god existed and did pull the proverbial rug, what would that accomplish? Would that make him feel more of a man that he was able to settle scores because somebody had a different opinion of him? What would it accomplish other than just making one more person suffer? This god must be a very angry guy, always looking for vengeance, it's like a competition with him....That's a tell tale sign of low self esteem...If he had high self esteem, he would learn to appreaciate dissenting views and not be the dictator that he is with his "my way or the highway" philosophy....But once again, to each their own, a lack of god in my life does not make me cocky or invincible, infact, it makes me look at humanity with humility, and that's why I will always do the little that I can to help my neighbor because I am my brother's keeper.
Now you dont want Him to be a dictator. As far as I can tell, God has not killed anyone, yet. (see reply in paragraph about role of humans). Those not with us today are in 'sleep'. Some day, He will wake them up and they will live again. You will see them, even that dear one of yours.Then He will make some be as if they had never been. Think of this this way, you are a dissenting voice against Him yet you still live. There are billions of dissentors like you walking on this planet today and making decisions that affect the next person +vely or -vely. What a dictatorship you live in!
It's 2012, do you still believe that hogwash that you read in the bible about somebody turning water into wine? C'mon now, really? Nabwire, I am more astonished by you because I have read your posts on this site and you came across as a very intelligent guy, so it buffles me that you actually believe that a man parted the red sea..Surely dude, really?
Its 2012 already yet we have not found cure for the lousy common cold. Atheists who make medicines have let humanity down in this regard, more than the God they accuse. We dont have all the answers to everything and we, especially you, are not consistent in everything. But you are still thinking of these things. This shows you are still thinking about them. Please, whatever you do, be a good atheist and do not stop thinking about them. That is the only way you you will begin to figure them out.
Do not criticize theists for believing then you turn around and believe that God does not exist. Oh, and avoid averments, atheists like doing that.
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