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Bob :'Safaricom a bigger, & more trusted, brand than the church'
Rank: Member Joined: 12/17/2011 Posts: 887
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Nabwire wrote:Hamburglar you are confusing God and religion. Most of your rants are against religion which is manmade, and I do agree there is alot of fakeness in the Church. But God is real. I have noticed that most atheists are usually well educated and well to do people living in the diaspora. I wonder if you would hold these same views if you were struggling in a slum with 5 children and no food on the table? Affluence has a way of making one feel invincible and you thus start challenging everything. Be careful not to measure your self worth by how much you have coz its all an illusion, at any moment the carpet can be pulled from underneath you. Nabwire, my rants are against this make belief god that can't help his children when they need him the most. What's his deal? Why can't he just give us a cure for cancer or AIDS? What perverse
satisfaction does he derive from seeing kids starve to death and yet he is supposed to be omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent? Why can't he just end the suffering that his children are enduring? Why can't he just get rid of sin and make this world a better place? I am not sure what his priorities are...It seems like he is more concerned with keeping tabs and sending people that did not kiss his ass to hell. Looks like his main priority is for people to please him, for people to ask (pray, beg) for shit that he can just provide without having to be asked.
Why do we have to ask him for shit and he can already see how people are suffering? It just doesn't make sense. All he cares about is who is worshipping him on Sunday and who is begging him for shit and then he sits on his ass and does nothing about it? C'mon now, if that god were me and I had all these powers that theists claim he has, I would make this world perfect on Day 1. There would be no diseases, no conflicts, no suffering just paradise and I would do all these without anybody having to ask for it....I would just do it, if I had the power to make this world paradise I would do it instead of playing with people's heads "working in mysterious ways", please, there is no time for playing mysterious games while people continue to suffer, what's the point of being mysterious and kids are starving to death every 5 minutes?
Or as theists say, god answers prayers, then why hasn't he answered the thousands of prayers for a cure for cancer yet? Or is he working in mysterious ways? I have lost a dear one to cancer, I saw her suffer through pain, and yet god was busy sending people to burn to death and didn't have time to save her? What pleasure does he get by sending people to burn for eternity? (I don't believe in hell, but just for the sake of argument)...What kind of evil person would put his "children" through such torture for ETERNITY?
This god guy has some serious serious issues....And that's why to a logical person, this god does not exist, you Nabwire are just living in fear, you think if you dismiss thsi god and start thinking for yourself that something bad might happen to you as attested by your sentiment that the carpet can be pulled from underneath me for not worshipping god....I am not afraid of losing everything, it just means that I have to start over...Life goes on....But I refuse to live in fear or to kiss somebody's ass in the hopes that he doesn't pull the rug from underneath me....
Besides, even if this god existed and did pull the proverbial rug, what would that accomplish? Would that make him feel more of a man that he was able to settle scores because somebody had a different opinion of him? What would it accomplish other than just making one more person suffer? This god must be a very angry guy, always looking for vengeance, it's like a competition with him....That's a tell tale sign of low self esteem...If he had high self esteem, he would learn to appreaciate dissenting views and not be the dictator that he is with his "my way or the highway" philosophy....But once again, to each their own, a lack of god in my life does not make me cocky or invincible, infact, it makes me look at humanity with humility, and that's why I will always do the little that I can to help my neighbor because I am my brother's keeper.
It's 2012, do you still believe that hogwash that you read in the bible about somebody turning water into wine? C'mon now, really? Nabwire, I am more astonished by you because I have read your posts on this site and you came across as a very intelligent guy, so it buffles me that you actually believe that a man parted the red sea..Surely dude, really?
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 4/16/2010 Posts: 906 Location: Nairobi
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@hamburglar two things you must be careful of:
1. Don't allow yourself to be labelled. Now people have labelled you an 'atheist' which makes it very easy for them to judge you without getting to know you.
2. As you state your arguments, don't be an asshole. I've found that many people who don't believe in God put forth their arguments in a very condescending manner, and you seem to be going down that path as well. Understand that nobody knows the truth beyond reasonable doubt. Whether creation or evolution, we're all dealing with theories, so tolerance of others' beliefs is necessary.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 11/7/2007 Posts: 2,182
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[quote=hamburglar] [quote=martcentre]If you believe that there is devil, then God also exists. the reason why i believe the devil is there is because he is more visible on earth with his evil deeds. How would you explain Vudu, Black Magic, Charm or whatever name you want to call it. and don't tell me it does not exist we all know uchawi exists. And when i talk of black magic am not referring to those jobless Kenyans who have discovered an opportunity to exploit Kenyans by pretending to be Witch doctors. Am talking about the real ones who make men and women of integrity eat grass like goats and those make stolen TV's get stuck on peoples backs.. ref to 2008 PEV in Mombasa. [b]To me this explains that there is some power beyond what we can see. Witch doctors use the powers of the evil one 'Devil'. and if devil exists then God to----- [b][i]Dude, get real, it's 2012 and you are still talking about blac BOSS UCHAWI IKO~TENA SANA, TEBEA UONE. LOVE WHAT YOU DO, DO WHAT YOU LOVE.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 11/7/2007 Posts: 2,182
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people believe in different things, just like i believe that people should not cry if indeed the one who has died has gone to a "better place" so let them be. its their choice, why bother defending an all powerful GOD anyway? he will defend Himself, let the pple be!!! LOVE WHAT YOU DO, DO WHAT YOU LOVE.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/22/2011 Posts: 1,325
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First of all I am not a dude, I guess I should start putting pics of butterflies with all my posts coz you are not the first to think I am a dude. Or is it Kenyan mentality that anyone who is intelligent is by default male?
Anyways, its interesting that you pick out only negative things that happen in the world and attribute that as evidence of no God. What about the child who was rescued after being attacked by dogs and is now recovering? I can choose to see a miracle from God in that she did not die, but you will choose to see an evil God who let an evil mother abandon her child. Its all perception and dare I say you sound like a pessimist? To me your rants sound like a child who pours hot water on himself after being warned not to then complains why did the parent let that happen to him. Anyways you are on the right path coz its by questioning that we discover our true selves, so I guess just keep at it, you will find a happy medium.
And finally people need to separate Jewish folklore from actual messages from God. The parting of the red sea is Jewsih folklore, their interpretations of what they think God wanted or what they wrote themselves, books like Psalms were written by Jews, they are not expressly from God. Only the first 5 books are expressly from God, the rest are just guidelines to life. Not to say that they are less important but people should make a distinction. Most dont realize that Bible was written over a period of roughly 1000 years and by many different authors, thats why I am saying you are confusing God and religion.
Also the pulling of the carpet was not referring to God, everyone is susceptible coz money is an illusion.
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Rank: Member Joined: 12/17/2011 Posts: 887
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KenyanLyrics wrote:@hamburglar two things you must be careful of:
1. Don't allow yourself to be labelled. Now people have labelled you an 'atheist' which makes it very easy for them to judge you without getting to know you.
Being judged or labelled is the least of my worries...Theists do that all the time, theists harbor more hate than atheists and it's not even close...I have theists frenemies who literally hate me, actually abhor me, but that only proves how evil theism is, because these same people that hate me, I have nothing but love for them..I have no room for hate in my heart..If somebody wants to waste their energy judging, hating or labelling me, let them knock themselves out, that doesn't faze me one bit....I don't divagate, I don't hate, I embrace freedom of religion or lack thereof....Some religious fellow who lived in my State and who hated me with a passion moved to a different state and months later unfortunately lost his mum...The people who knew him in my state did nothing about it, so I made phone calls, held an impromptu harambee and raised some money for him to help send his mother home for burial because I know how expensive that whole process can be....Why did I do it? Because I embrace humanity and have no reason to hate like theists do....That same hate that theists carry towards atheist is the reason why muslims and Christians and all the other religions are killing each other everyday....So, if anybody wants to label me, let them call me what they may....It's really not going to cost me any sleep but they are the ones that have to deal with the hate in their hearts...I know I am resented and I will probably be hated here on wazua, but be that as it may, I consider everybody here a friend that I can learn something from regardless of our differences....That's the difference between theists and I, but once again, they are the children of god, am not.
2. As you state your arguments, don't be an asshole. I've found that many people who don't believe in God put forth their arguments in a very condescending manner, and you seem to be going down that path as well. Understand that nobody knows the truth beyond reasonable doubt. Whether creation or evolution, we're all dealing with theories, so tolerance of others' beliefs is necessary. Dude, nobody is being an asshole....I have seen and heard douchebags speak and my points are nowhere close to assholish...lol...I am a very down to earth guy, the life of the party, I don't have a single bone of asshole in me...There is no reason to be an asshole or a punk when it comes to discourse like this....If you want to talk about tolerance, maybe you need to talk to the theists that have banned me from their homes....On the flip side, any theist is welcome in my house, even if they wanted to say a prayer before we eat, they are most welcome and I will even bow my head and close my eyes in respect to their prayer...So I think you have the whole tolerance thing twisted my friend...And last but not least, once you drop the faith and use reason and logic, you will know the truth beyond a reasonable doubt...You might still be in limbo but my vision is clear regarding this whole issue....I can confidently and unequivocally say that I know the truth.....Take care dude...
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Rank: Member Joined: 12/17/2011 Posts: 887
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Nabwire wrote:First of all I am not a dude, I guess I should start putting pics of butterflies with all my posts coz you are not the first to think I am a dude. Or is it Kenyan mentality that anyone who is intelligent is by default male?
That "Kenyan mentality" dig was uncalled for and a little under the belt but am a good sport and I enjoy witty sarcasm so I will let that one slide and send you a virtual dap...We cool?...You could have easily just stated your gender without throwing kenyans and their so called "mentality" under the bus...lol...
Anyways, its interesting that you pick out only negative things that happen in the world and attribute that as evidence of no God. What about the child who was rescued after being attacked by dogs and is now recovering?
Well, if this god cared about that child he would not have let him be attacked by that dog in the first place..if that's how he displays his miracles then he has a warped mind....A better miracle would be to give us the cure for cancer instead of having a child get mauled by a dog and suffer unspeakable pain before saving him...Don't you think that Nabwire? Does somebody have to get hurt first before god can do a miracle? Maybe it's just me, but a good miracle to me would be for god to make it rain beans and maize and beef stew in Somalia so the kids can stop starving to death...Now that would be something, wouldn't it Nabwire?
I can choose to see a miracle from God in that she did not die, but you will choose to see an evil God who let an evil mother abandon her child. Its all perception and dare I say you sound like a pessimist?
Me a pessimist? hardly..I am optimistic everyday and that optimism is what fuels me...Do I face challenges and hurdles? Yes, everyday, but does that stop me? Hell NO. If I were a pessimist I would have given up on a lot of good things that I have done and am still trying to do...Right now I have a huge huge challenge to build a children's home, or at least get some help building it, but I am super optimistic that it will be done...Were it not for that optimism, I would have abandoned this seemingly imsurmountable project and gone back to my peaceful life...But there is hope and I am an OPTIMIST who believes it will be done....Nabwire, the word you were looking for is optimist and not pessimist.
To me your rants sound like a child who pours hot water on himself after being warned not to then complains why did the parent let that happen to him.
You pulled that analogy right out of your ass and you know it....I am saying this with love because that statement absolutely defies any logic...But it's all good, I will take it for what it's worth.
Anyways you are on the right path coz its by questioning that we discover our true selves, so I guess just keep at it, you will find a happy medium.
The only way to find self realization is questioning everything...Ask questions, always questions everything...Question, question question....Use reason....Difference between atheists and theists is that atheists question everything, theists live by a code of faith where you only need to believe and not ask questions....Well, we all see how pastors and priests take advantage of theists who aretaught not to question even when they see a pastor driving a range rover or a priest grabbig a boy's crotch.....You have to ask questions....ALWAYS.
And finally people need to separate Jewish folklore from actual messages from God. The parting of the red sea is Jewsih folklore, their interpretations of what they think God wanted or what they wrote themselves, books like Psalms were written by Jews, they are not expressly from God. Only the first 5 books are expressly from God, the rest are just guidelines to life. Not to say that they are less important but people should make a distinction. Most dont realize that Bible was written over a period of roughly 1000 years and by many different authors, thats why I am saying you are confusing God and religion.
Also the pulling of the carpet was not referring to God, everyone is susceptible coz money is an illusion. Money is not an illusion my friend, money makes the world go round....We are here on wazua to find ways to make money, we are not here for an illusion...Isin't wazua primary premise 'serious talk about money?" Or maye I missed the part where it states "serious talk about an illusion?" Make money and don't believe the hype and all the crap about money being the root of all eveil...Only people without money make excuses like those to make themselves feel better about not having money....Tell that to a kid in Mathere, that money is an illusion and he might spit on your face..He knows that with money his life can be thousandfold better, so that illusion talk just dones't fly....Money is real, make it and help other people with the money you make and please learn what time it is and drop the misguided cliches already....
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/22/2011 Posts: 1,325
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OK point noted about Kenyan mentality.
Ofcourse you are skewing the debate coz its not true that atheists question everything and theists dont. Atheists dont question the possiblity of what if I am wrong and there is a God afterall, they assume that their beliefs are set in stone. I get your point about blind faith, but I am a theist who questions just about everything!! Actually the only thing atheists question is the existence of God, its almost like they want to convince themselves so bad that there is no God, thus the never ending debates. If I believed that something didnt exist, lie Santa Clause for example, I wouldnt waste my time justifying my beliefs. I think this is the part where theists wonder atheists dwell so much on this issue. You have your perception I have mine.
About money, it is an illusion. I dont know where you pulled out the money is evil line, you are assuming that since I believe in God I must think money is evil. Actually this is a Christian thing, again religion brought this, coz Jews and Muslims actually encourage people to make as much money as possible. Anyways I didnt say money is an illusion coz of my faith, I know it is coz it is just a piece of paper and your attitude and action towards it is what determines whther you will have more of it or less of it. Thats wh there are so many lottery winners who end up broke and destitute. Money is an illusion, that doesnt mean that it is bad.
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Rank: Member Joined: 4/20/2010 Posts: 412 Location: nairobi
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hamburglar wrote:The point is, you can continue waiting for your god to "bless" you with success and "to open" doors for you You need to know a few more facts: 1. Even in this wonderful wazua forum we have strong beleivers. They are in the forum to exchange ideas on becoming more successful in their area of business. Because you seem to be conversant with the scriptures the apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 3:10 wrote: "For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.” Throughout the scriptures God refers to the lazy/sluggards as fools and foolish. Theists don't just sit and wait for blessings to drop from up, we work and work hard mister. 2. Your reference to scripture is based on a deductive study instead of inductive study. In other words your mind is closed and you wouldn't want to see anything new or different from your perspective. Open up to the fact that even your perception on the worldview could be wrong. The only time you should be looking down on others is when you are helping them up.
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Rank: Member Joined: 12/17/2011 Posts: 887
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mmarto wrote:hamburglar wrote:The point is, you can continue waiting for your god to "bless" you with success and "to open" doors for you You need to know a few more facts: 1. Even in this wonderful wazua forum we have strong beleivers. They are in the forum to exchange ideas on becoming more successful in their area of business. Because you seem to be conversant with the scriptures the apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 3:10 wrote: "For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.” Throughout the scriptures God refers to the lazy/sluggards as fools and foolish. Theists don't just sit and wait for blessings to drop from up, we work and work hard mister. 2. Your reference to scripture is based on a deductive study instead of inductive study. In other words your mind is closed and you wouldn't want to see anything new or different from your perspective. Open up to the fact that even your perception on the worldview could be wrong. No, my perception on the worldview is NOT wrong..I wouldn't be this confident if I had doubts about my perceptions...Sorry, but I am as confident as can be that my perception is NOT wrong. You guys can have doubts about your religion and your gods, but I am super duper confident that I have it right...Nothing can ever convince me otherwise, ever.
Well, most of my friends are theists and everytime I talk to them they infer that they are still waiting for god to bless them with such and such....The blessings seem to be taking an awful long time because some of them have been struggling for years now while waiting for these "blessings"...How long does it take god to open these doors?....10 years, 15 years? Forget about waiting for god to help you and start helping yourself, that's my message to you theists....And with that, I am out, we will never see eye to eye on this discussion..The bottom line is that I have found so much success and happiness ever since I dropped gods and religion from my life...I am at peace, I don't have to worry about muslims killing christians or Palestinians killing Jews or my priest molesting kids or my pastor stealing from the church and all that other madness that comes with religion...I think for myself and I couldn't be more happy with myself...I hold myself accountable for my actions, I don't need to do anything to please a god in the hopes that he will let me into heaven....A lot of theists don't even love this god, they just believe in him out of fear of going to "hell" and in the hopes that they will get a pass into "heaven"...What a crock....It doesn't make sense to be good on earth so that you will be rewarded, that's insencere, there is no integrity in that....If you do good on earth do it because it's out of the goodness of your heart.. If we never had these gods and religions, we wouldn't have to walk the streets of Nairobi looking over our shoulders freaful that Al-Shabab might blow us up at anytime....Religions has been very very detrimental to humanity and it's rearing it's ugly head in our own backyard with the Al-shabab idiots as we speak....If we were all atheists, then we wouldn't have a need to kill each other based on stupid beliefs....Wake up you guys, but then again you guys can stay religious, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it, more power to you, to each their own..I wish there was a land where us atheists can just go and be by ourselves and let all of your religions kill each other while we live in harmony..
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