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Insightful take on Nairobi Real Estate
young
#11 Posted : Tuesday, May 19, 2009 12:38:00 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/20/2007
Posts: 2,074
Location: Lagos, Nigeria
Good Piece TB

Interesting contribution Sigiriri. For once I have heard from a Kenyan that knows about the beautiful city of Abuja,the new Nigerian Capital since 1993 built from the scratch.

Everybody only knows about Lagos (and only the associated Chinedu like negative news) where I work and live. with a population of 15 Million people and a far smaller land mass than Nairobi,Lagos is full of islands and water ways,a lot confusion,you can imagine.

My take is if Nairobi property is very expensive why not take a look at Kampala or Dar ? That is what EAC is all about. After all Asante Sana (Swahili) is spoken in all these cities.

Young
Lagos,Nigeria

AFRICAN INVESTOR
The wazua spirit as members is to educate and inform and learn from others within the limit of what we know in any chosen area irrespective of our differences in tribes, nationalities, etc. .
smano
#12 Posted : Tuesday, May 19, 2009 1:47:00 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 12/13/2006
Posts: 2,589
@TB thanks for this post,insightful it is.

@ stocksmaster your 2nd point is spot on.

I wanted to share something I read in an article by a guy in one of these real estate management companies,it was in a recent edition of Home & Away pullout in the Thursday Standard. He was doing a similar analysis of the reasons why the Nairobi property market behaves thus. He talked about the way diaspora remittances was one of the factors that caused prices to rise significantly and continues to do so even with the current global credit crunch. This is on the basis of currency conversion. He gave an example of a Kenyan in the US spending 145,000 USD to buy a property here when the KES was 62 bob to the USD,comes to around KES 8M. Fast forward to now - same property has appreciated to KES 11M,same Kenyan in the US spends the same 145,000 USD at the current rates of KES 78 to the USD. The argument was basically that the factors are broad and intertwining. While @tonystark is right to observe that diaspora are negatively affacted by the global crunch,the currency conversion puts them in the same situation as 2 - 3 years ago. I found that interesting.

That said,I totally agree that property development on the outskirts of Nairobi,while it may not look very profitable for developers right now,will be all the rave very soon as infrastructure development gets underway. I have a friend who stays in a 2 b-room apartment opp. Windsor for 17,500/-. I can bet that by the time they complete the 5 lanes on Thika road,the same might be going for 25-30k,as it should when you see the size of the rooms. It's depressing staying in a small 1 bedroom for about the same rent simply coz one cannot stand the hustle of traffic on Thika road! Infrastructure development I believe will play a key role in opening up the outskirts,even the yuppies are prepared to go and live in Kitengela in the next 2 - 3 years in it will take 20 - 30 min to fika town. And owning a 3 b- room crib for 3M - 5M in such a place at that time will be ok for most guys - I wouldn't mind. Any developer here to give their views?

smano
BEER IS LIVING PROOF THAT GOD LOVES US AND WANTS US TO BE HAPPY!
fantony
#13 Posted : Tuesday, May 19, 2009 3:23:00 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 11/6/2006
Posts: 276
1. 16% mortgage expensive????... it's naive to think like that. i just think the writer has never borrowed a facility inside Kenyan borders.
2. Majority of nairobi residents can't afford housing; so what..? As a developer you are a businessman first and there is a huge difference between a need and a want,the latter group can afford?
As a developer you develop for whichever group will work out a better return for you in a shorter period.
3. Whining will not help. ohh...its so expensive...ohhh.... drugieeeesss and foreigners are driving prices up. Are all those in Lavington,Kyuna,Spring Valley,Thigiri,Gigiri,Nyari,Kitisuru,Loresho,Muthaiga are druglords and somali refugees?
Wake up and smell the coffee! Hard work pays... with a house in a high class neighbourhood,and that when you are over forty; not when you are at your entry level job.
Drop you village standards? Make a decision to what lifestyle you want to lead.
And have a critical look at those who have made it!
Peter Kenneth on Churchill Live described an accurate arc they followed...started at eastlands,then nairobi west/southb/c/langata and finally to the nice list above.
Stop whining for heaven's sake you are making sk appear a losers paradise.
4. stop viewing your world with your special brand of lenses! which prices fell? where?
Obi 1 Kanobi
#14 Posted : Tuesday, May 19, 2009 4:39:00 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/23/2008
Posts: 3,017
@Fantony,you missed the point by a mile. Do not look at the write-up as an individual problem,look at it as a societal problem,ever heard of micro & Macro issues. They go hand in hand.

1. 16% mortgage expensive????... it's naive to think like that. i just think the writer has never borrowed a facility inside Kenyan borders.

16% is high,ever thought of what the rates are in most developed countries in the world? check the rates for Japan,SA,UK,US etc,then tell us if you are happy to pay the kenyan rates.


2. Majority of nairobi residents can't afford housing; so what..? As a developer you are a businessman first and there is a huge difference between a need and a want,the latter group can afford?

Case in point; at one point mobile phones were sold for 200K and people were charged to receive calls,enter MJ and now housegals own mobile phones and the businessman Safaricom is making mad cash.


3. Whining will not help. ohh...its so expensive...ohhh.... drugieeeesss and foreigners are driving prices up. Are all those in Lavington,Kyuna,Spring Valley,Thigiri,Gigiri,Nyari,Kitisuru,Loresho,Muthaiga are druglords and somali refugees?

Nobody is whinging,we just want the central and local governments to provide some order,its their job. Most countries restrict the activities of non citizens,e.g TZ and the current EAC impasse.

Wake up and smell the coffee! Hard work pays... with a house in a high class neighbourhood,and that when you are over forty; not when you are at your entry level job.
Drop you village standards? Make a decision to what lifestyle you want to lead.
And have a critical look at those who have made it!
Peter Kenneth on Churchill Live described an accurate arc they followed...started at eastlands,then nairobi west/southb/c/langata and finally to the nice list above.
Stop whining for heaven's sake you are making sk appear a losers paradise.

I would like to see you tell a watchman who works 12 hours everyday that hardwork pays so he should keep his eye on the 12m mortgage. Though smart and hard work does pay. There are very many kenyans who work hard e.g Teachers etc. they cannot buy houses in the competitive Nairobi mortgage but I know for a fact that there is an estate in Nakuru called Teachers with very decent houses and was constructed through teachers sacco loan schemes. Its not all about the amount of money,some smarts and collective organisation in society also helps.



4. stop viewing your world with your special brand of lenses! which prices fell? where?

Whats wrong with looking for discounts,its called smart shopping.


I guess if you can't win with facts,you can always pen bile-laced,xenophobic rants to distract everyone.
"The purpose of bureaucracy is to compensate for incompetence and lack of discipline." James Collins
tony stark
#15 Posted : Tuesday, May 19, 2009 4:54:00 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 7/8/2008
Posts: 947
@ Fantony your condescending attitude and tone is not warranted.

'16% mortgage expensive????... it's naive to think like that' Well in this case i believe you are being naive. Average mortgage rates in the UK range from 4-6% and this is repeated in most of the developed world. The default rate as seen by the credit crunch is higher there than it is in kenya. So how do you justify 16% mortgage!
'Majority of nairobi residents can't afford housing; so what' Don't be naive. The goverment has a responsibility to house it citizens in decent housing. If you think housing is only for the rich kweli tunashida. The next civil strife will be a class issue to! The private developers have a right to make a profit but isn't it greedy to expect to double your money!! But that is there prerogative and no one here has said don't make the paper. All we are saying is goverment should also step in and build more houses increasing supply and reducing demand of the developers property.
'Whining will not help. ohh...its so expensive...ohhh.... drugieeeesss and foreigners are driving prices up' Kizungu ni ngumu sana. Who here has whined!!

Please save your marget wanjiru evangelical wealth preaching on 'decide on the life you want' nonsence and either add to the constructive discussion that we were having or keep quite.

Back to the discussion
@smano.I hadnt commented on the diaspora. I cant get the point you are making. Nway as much as the diaspora is negatively affected i dont think that will bring down prices. The rate of there investment might dwindle which i doubt because speculation of land in kenya is a better investment vehicle with better return with obvious risks of being conned!
@Mr Tea spot on.
@sigiriri Nairobi has a lot of hope all we need to do is make serious investments and serious choices. And as Mr tea says the metropolis is the solution to nairobi problems.

SK A.L.U.M.N.I (Alcoholic Liason and Undergarments Manager of Nakedness Internationally)
Marty
#16 Posted : Wednesday, May 20, 2009 4:05:00 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 3/31/2008
Posts: 761
Location: Nairobi
From a developer's point of view,I being one of them,though in a small way,all one is interested in is highest returns within the shortest time possible. This explains the reason why in the past,the higher middle class market (6-10M) houses have been a hit in the past,coz there was hype sorrounding the specific locations where such houses could be developed,Kilimani,Lavi and the like. However,this is the segment of the market that has been really affected by the economic downturn.

Developers have not been very keen on the lower end of the market until recently coz it is now obvious that this is the segment that the demand is sustainable in the foreseeable future. It is thus clear that estates are being set up in the outskirts of Nairobi where the demand is sure,though the returns may be relatively lower.

Another important factor to note is that the prices of land in the neighbourhood determines the price of the houses done. Thus a similar house in Kitengela,Ngon'g,Kiambu road and other locations are priced with amazing disparities.

We also have to differentiate demand and effective demand. Demand is quite high but not all those who wish to own houses can afford them. It is thus important to note that effective demand constituted by those who want houses and go for them is what is very important from a developer's point of view. Majority of Kenyans who buy houses through mortgage cannot afford houses beyond the 8-10M price largely due to the very high repayments which are beyond reach for most of them.

..wise as a serpent,humble as a dove
When I admire the wonder of a sunset or the beauty
of the moon, my soul expands in worship of the Creator.
smano
#17 Posted : Wednesday, May 20, 2009 6:54:00 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 12/13/2006
Posts: 2,589
@tony stark,sorry,that comment was meant for sigirigiri,he/she's the one who had commented about the diaspora,your 2nd point in the earlier response was spot on. I inadvertently interchanged the two names.

@Fantony,are you a developer? Coz if that's they way most view this issue then we've got a long way to go...sorry...I'VE got a long way to go. @Marty thanks for those insights,refreshing & encouraging

smano
BEER IS LIVING PROOF THAT GOD LOVES US AND WANTS US TO BE HAPPY!
bwenyenye
#18 Posted : Wednesday, May 20, 2009 10:23:00 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 5/24/2007
Posts: 1,805
Good people,

My take is that the prices in Nbi may hold for a while longer. These are my reasons


Nairobi was designed as a class capital. There should be a place for everyone.( sadly) The owners of housing in Nbi are the owners of capital in Kenya. They will ensure that Nbi remains as is.e.g when commoners tried to owm land in Karen,they slapped a minimum 5acre per entry that was way above the commoners. What amazed me was that they allowed the dezoning of some areas like Kilimani but the result is there for all to see.. chaos! The beauty of the place is lost and now remains a concrete jungle. I think they will block this through Kisia.
Real estate in nairobi is a not a common good ( in economics) but has grown to become a luxury item. This will be more felt when the EAC comes into play. As you well know,luxury items respond differently to higher prices.
Now onto the outskirts that are being seen as the saviour,it is unfortunate that there is no planning and so what we end up having are concrete slums. e.g Thika road towards ( githurai 44 and 45) is horrible,Mwiki,Huruma,Ruai,Onagata Rongai,Ngong' etc. The only place that could be slavagabe is Msa Rd. This is because along Msa Rd ( upto Mlolongo) there are alot of companies moving there and building premises. These companies,new infratstructure,coupled with Upper hIll area offices will ensure a balanced area where definitley prices will continue to climb. It means that people will live around here and work around this area.

The only other best option would be to develop a new city. But even then,Nairobi will hold its forte.
I Think Therefore I Am
nimimi
#19 Posted : Wednesday, May 20, 2009 2:24:00 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 5/10/2007
Posts: 28
Firstly,I must commend you all for very insightful analysis on the issue. I have some small developments in the lower middle income space and I must say that an interesting turn of events that has occured in recent times is that rents in Athi River and Kitengela (2 b/room flats) have over taken rents in Tena. Now in terms of future development (from a developers perspective) I can only imagine that many of us have no choice but to follow the cheese thus expect more expansion past mlolongo...unless someone can tell me why this trend in rents has occured...
Chaka
#20 Posted : Wednesday, May 20, 2009 3:42:00 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 2/16/2007
Posts: 2,114
@TB,

Very good.This is the reality on the ground.

I once had a plot (with intention of bulding)at Ongata Rongai and had hoped the the Langata dual carriageway would end at the Bomas turnoff.This did not happen,then there were vicious gangs killing people there i.e insecurity,no water,no sewer lines(the whole place reeked of sh.t),uncontrolled development.I gave up and sold it.

Now can someone tell me why it is that in Japan they have 100 year mortgages?

Why despite the number of property owners having gone up over the years the government cannot reduce stamp duty from the current 4 per cent?

Why can't the government reduce construction costs by removing VAT on hardware materials?

I also find the land rates paid to NCC in Nairobi quite high

Another problem is that when you apply for a refund from KRA for mortgage interest payment in the tax returns,they don't pay up!
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