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OUR LANGUAGE AFFECTS OUR THINKING
josiah33
#1 Posted : Sunday, March 18, 2012 4:50:23 PM
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Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 1,777
Quote:
People's ideas of time differ across languages in other ways. For example, English speakers tend to talk about time using horizontal spatial metaphors (e.g., "The best is ahead of us," "The worst is behind us"), whereas Mandarin speakers have a vertical metaphor for time (e.g., the next month is the "down month" and the last month is the "up month"). Mandarin speakers talk about time vertically more often than English speakers do, so do Mandarin speakers think about time vertically more often than English speakers do? Imagine this simple experiment. I stand next to you, point to a spot in space directly in front of you, and tell you, "This spot, here, is today. Where would you put yesterday? And where would you put tomorrow?" When English speakers are asked to do this, they nearly always point horizontally. But Mandarin speakers often point vertically, about seven or eight times more often than do English speakers.
josiah33
#2 Posted : Sunday, March 18, 2012 5:08:11 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 1,777
Quote:
Russian speakers see more colour than English speakers-Experiments have found that whether or not you can register a color depends on whether or not you have a name for it in your language. You can see the color, it just doesn't register in your mind.

One study compared some young children from England with kids from a tribe in Nambia. In the English language, young kids usually learn 11 basic colors (black, white, gray, red, green, blue, yellow, pink, orange, purple and brown) but in Himba it's only five. For instance, they lump red, orange and pink together and call it "serandu."


If you showed the Himba toddler a pink card and then later showed him a red one and ask if they're the same card, the kid would often mistakenly say yes -- because they're both "serandu." Same as if you showed you "Eggshell" and an hour later showed you "Bone" and asked if it was the same card from before. Now, again, they can see the colors; if you hold up a pink card and a red card next to each other, the English kid and Himba kid both would say they're different. But not when they see them one at a time.

But if you teach him the new names for the colors, that one is "pink" and the other is "red," from then on he can identify them when seen by themselves, without the other one for comparison.
Likewise, Turkish and Russian both split what we call "blue" into two different colors, for the darker and lighter shades. Therefore they consistently do a better job than English speakers when given the same "is this blue card the same as the last blue card" test. Even weirder, when testing the Russians they found that by giving them a verbal distraction (making them try to memorize a string of numbers while doing the color test) the advantage disappeared. It was the language part of their brain that was helping them "see" the colour.



Kusadikika
#3 Posted : Sunday, March 18, 2012 6:02:13 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2008
Posts: 2,703
This is very interesting. My own experience with wazungus is that they are very wordy. They have words for everything so when communicating they seem to know more than waafrika therefore they appear more intelligent. Waafrika while in my opinion having the same information substitute gestures for words so they do not need to have a word for things that they can show with a gesture. A good example is giving directions.

Ask a Nairobian or a Kenyan how to get from one point to another and he will most likely point you in the direction you ought to go then use words like when you see the blue building turn this way, again pointing instead of using the words left and right, go straight and you will see the place it is not far.

A response from a mzungu will probably be: Head North along X street. Go five blocks. Turn west on Y street. Go two blocks and the destination will be on your right. All this without using his body to point out anything. So if like most new people to Wazunguland you have no idea where North is, umepotea tayari.
seppuku
#4 Posted : Sunday, March 18, 2012 7:42:20 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 5/11/2010
Posts: 918
Kusadikika wrote:
This is very interesting. My own experience with wazungus is that they are very wordy. They have words for everything so when communicating they seem to know more than waafrika therefore they appear more intelligent. Waafrika while in my opinion having the same information substitute gestures for words so they do not need to have a word for things that they can show with a gesture. A good example is giving directions.

Ask a Nairobian or a Kenyan how to get from one point to another and he will most likely point you in the direction you ought to go then use words like when you see the blue building turn this way, again pointing instead of using the words left and right, go straight and you will see the place it is not far.

A response from a mzungu will probably be: Head North along X street. Go five blocks. Turn west on Y street. Go two blocks and the destination will be on your right. All this without using his body to point out anything. So if like most new people to Wazunguland you have no idea where North is, umepotea tayari.


Very true. Once we had a mzungu project manager who on account of his verbal prowess was hard to beat in a head to head debate. And of course, the fact that it was we who spoke his language and not he ours only complicated the equation. But he saw a tough crowd. What we couldn't verbalize we drew. In the end, we realized that when it came down to it, he was no smarter than the rest of us.
Learn first to treat your time as you would your money, then treat your money as you do your time.
masukuma
#5 Posted : Sunday, March 18, 2012 8:04:10 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,821
Location: Nairobi
seppuku wrote:
Kusadikika wrote:
This is very interesting. My own experience with wazungus is that they are very wordy. They have words for everything so when communicating they seem to know more than waafrika therefore they appear more intelligent. Waafrika while in my opinion having the same information substitute gestures for words so they do not need to have a word for things that they can show with a gesture. A good example is giving directions.

Ask a Nairobian or a Kenyan how to get from one point to another and he will most likely point you in the direction you ought to go then use words like when you see the blue building turn this way, again pointing instead of using the words left and right, go straight and you will see the place it is not far.

A response from a mzungu will probably be: Head North along X street. Go five blocks. Turn west on Y street. Go two blocks and the destination will be on your right. All this without using his body to point out anything. So if like most new people to Wazunguland you have no idea where North is, umepotea tayari.


Very true. Once we had a mzungu project manager who on account of his verbal prowess was hard to beat in a head to head debate. And of course, the fact that it was we who spoke his language and not he ours only complicated the equation. But he saw a tough crowd. What we couldn't verbalize we drew. In the end, we realized that when it came down to it, he was no smarter than the rest of us.

there is some truth in what you say. I never really cared what direction north is and I still give directions based on objects and place holders. I know places by how they look and not what their names are. its not uncommon for people not to know the names of buildings in nairobi yet they have visited offices there many times. What I love about african languages and people is the imagery used to express stuff - there is no end to it! people would be talking about potatoes and yet its quite political! with wazungus they are very direct and plain and to the point.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
josiah33
#6 Posted : Sunday, March 18, 2012 8:19:14 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 1,777
The mzungu might beat us in getting or giving directions but he can't beat the ABORIGINALS- I quote from somewhere
Quote:
If we were to ask you to come pick us up so we could crash at your place, because our El Camino was in the shop, and we gave you the directions as, "turn north at the Citgo station, go six blocks, then turn west at the Hooters, then south down the alley ..." would you tell us to go f*** ourselves? Hell, without a compass some of you can't even point which way is north from your own living room, let alone in a strange city.


"What the f*** did that airport security guard mean by 'east'?"

But you could go kidnap an Aboriginal tribesman from Australia and he'd immediately know which way is which. He'd know at any given second which direction he's facing. He has to know, because in the Aboriginal Guugu Yimithirr they also don't have words that mean "left" or "right" or "in front of" or "behind." They give all directions in terms of north/south/east/west. Seriously. If you're trying to hang a flat-screen TV on their wall they won't say, "Move it two inches to the left." They'll say, "Move it two inches east."

Now you'd think that, in practical terms, this would be pretty freaking annoying. But it turns out sticking to the compass gives them an almost supernatural sense of direction, and it's because they have to -- their language doesn't work otherwise. Because they speak in terms of geocentric directions, they also think in those terms. They could probably get around most cities better than you, even if they've never been inside of a car.



For Sport
#7 Posted : Sunday, March 18, 2012 8:34:45 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 12/23/2010
Posts: 1,229
Very interesting.

Most Kenyans speak at least 3 languages with varying degrees of fluency..English, Kiswahili & the mother tongue. I wonder how this affects / shapes our thinking.
josiah33
#8 Posted : Sunday, March 18, 2012 8:56:28 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 1,777
For Sport wrote:
Very interesting.

Most Kenyans speak at least 3 languages with varying degrees of fluency..English, Kiswahili & the mother tongue. I wonder how this affects / shapes our thinking.

I was wondering the same. What becomes of our thinking with our smattering of English, Kiswahili and a mother tongue?
essyk
#9 Posted : Sunday, March 18, 2012 10:34:59 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/15/2011
Posts: 4,518
Quote:
Ask a Nairobian or a Kenyan how to get from one point to another and he will most likely point you in the direction you ought to go then use words like when you see the blue building turn this way, again pointing instead of using the words left and right, go straight and you will see the place it is not far.
LOL.It's never far na saa hiyo you have covered the city's diameter.

Then they end up kukupoteza kabisa esp if its a random guy on the street utajikuta marikiti yet you were heading to upperhill

A response from a mzungu will probably be: Head North along X street. Go five blocks. Turn west on Y street. Go two blocks and the destination will be on your right. All this without using his body to point out anything. So if like most new people to Wazunguland you have no idea where North is, umepotea tayari.

Very funny but true.It got me thinking,does it mean we are more visual than intellectual? Yaani we cannot grasp directions until we see or use landmarks or we just don't care to know our city well?
Am guilty of this as well but council is doing a good job of putting signs.



"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good.
masukuma
#10 Posted : Sunday, March 18, 2012 11:29:44 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,821
Location: Nairobi
josiah33 wrote:
For Sport wrote:
Very interesting.

Most Kenyans speak at least 3 languages with varying degrees of fluency..English, Kiswahili & the mother tongue. I wonder how this affects / shapes our thinking.

I was wondering the same. What becomes of our thinking with our smattering of English, Kiswahili and a mother tongue?

my theory is that most arable farmers in africa were not good navigators due to the tribal nature of their surrounding (never ventured off the beaten path), perhaps the nilotic pastrolists would comment on how easy it is to give directions using their languages.
back to the point of 3 languages, for me regardless of how long i speak english, I still think in swahili (sheng) and therefore i do a quick translation from sheng/swa to english - occasionally, it backfires when i have to rearrange words e.g. "unaenda wapi" can be "you are going where?" instead of "where are you going?".
however i still communicate. having 2-3 languages is beneficial beneficial as you travel since u can use these languages as a basis to learn similar languages (swahili for arabic, urdu and hindi), english for french and possibly spanish, for kyuks bantu like languages. that's my experience.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
Kusadikika
#11 Posted : Monday, March 19, 2012 12:16:26 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2008
Posts: 2,703
essyk wrote:


Very funny but true.It got me thinking,does it mean we are more visual than intellectual? Yaani we cannot grasp directions until we see or use landmarks or we just don't care to know our city well?
Am guilty of this as well but council is doing a good job of putting signs.



[/quote]

I think that may be so. I have had the experience to work with Waafrika and some wazungus on procedures that I have to use my hands to manipulate instruments. Sasa its very easy for me to teach a mwafrika because all I have to do is tell him to do like this (as I show what am doing) then you pull this thing this way (again as I demonstrate)etc....

A big difference I have found with wazungus is that instead of looking at what am doing with my hands they are looking at my face and waiting for the words to describe the actions. First they want all the names of the instruments, (What does it matter to me, I know what it is and where to use it when I see it) then they want a description of the actions you perform with it (I am not good at describing things that I can see)....... anyway the end result I get is people who can describe actions precisely lakini kufanya is another thing.

Which reminds me. Just watch any post marathon interviews of a Kenyan guy who has finished first and an American guy who finished 27th or such other double digit number and you might think the Kenyan knows nothing about running while the American is an expert.
essyk
#12 Posted : Monday, March 19, 2012 9:23:47 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/15/2011
Posts: 4,518
Quote:
, it backfires when i have to rearrange words e.g. "unaenda wapi" can be "you are going where?" instead of "where are you going?".


Thank you for highlighting that.That's how our journalists read news and conduct interviews.
You have packed snacks? instead of 'Have you packed snacks.It's as if we expect an affirmative answer.
You have gone? instead of have you gone? it's annoying but am not innocent either.


Quote:
Just watch any post marathon interviews of a Kenyan guy who has finished first and an American guy who finished 27th or such other double digit number and you might think the Kenyan knows nothing about running while the American is an expert.


lol wacha tusiende hapo.Funny pics crossing my mind now.
"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good.
Rahatupu
#13 Posted : Monday, March 19, 2012 10:01:30 AM
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Joined: 12/4/2009
Posts: 1,982
Location: matano manne
Africans also seem not to have specific language for not only space but time as well also the element of volume, size is expressed in the same terms as time. For example if one was to ask his friend to wait a "little" while in Kiswahili they'd say "ngoja kidogo" if they were to say the volume is "small" the'd quip ni "kidogo". Now translate to English: "wait small", the water is "small".

In Liberia I observed how these people speak English in their own language, sample this: "this room is plenty".
essyk
#14 Posted : Monday, March 19, 2012 10:18:32 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/15/2011
Posts: 4,518
you know what Rahatupu? The most important thing in life and business is to communicate effectively.Its not really how best since we are not all linguists.
We conform to suit the environment. So if I go shags I talk like they do.If I come to the city and am on the streets I do street talk. But when am in a boardroom, then I am a bit carefull.

Thing is get the message across through actions or words it don't matter.
But not through stones.
"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good.
dunkang
#15 Posted : Monday, March 19, 2012 10:42:29 AM
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Joined: 6/2/2011
Posts: 4,818
Location: -1.2107, 36.8831
essyk wrote:

Quote:
Just watch any post marathon interviews of a Kenyan guy who has finished first and an American guy who finished 27th or such other double digit number and you might think the Kenyan knows nothing about running while the American is an expert.


lol wacha tusiende hapo.Funny pics crossing my mind now.


essyk wrote:

Thing is get the message across through actions or words it don't matter.
But not through stones.


That was hard!

But i fully agree with you!

A t my work place, we have people from about 12 countries, 40% of whom are Kenyan of various tribes.

When a Kip-nani says 'the short beam on top of the window' and McArthur says 'Lintel', there is no difference in its design!
Receive with simplicity everything that happens to you.” ― Rashi

Dash
#16 Posted : Monday, March 19, 2012 10:55:43 AM
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Joined: 3/24/2010
Posts: 677
Location: Nairobi
This is extremely interesting and I have to agree from personal experience. In highschool my main language was english and I now interact alot in Swahili due the crowd I hang with and I have more of the "you are going where" english. So when I am with my old high school friends, I actually feel out of place with my english because it does sound different and they continue speaking as they did
madammary
#17 Posted : Monday, March 19, 2012 4:42:55 PM
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Joined: 9/23/2011
Posts: 175
Location: Nairobi
There is a word for all this-LINGUISTIC RELATIVTY:The principle of linguistic relativity holds that the structure of a language affects the ways in which its speakers are able to conceptualize their world, i.e. their world view.
For Sport
#18 Posted : Monday, March 19, 2012 5:58:54 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 12/23/2010
Posts: 1,229
madammary wrote:
There is a word for all this-LINGUISTIC RELATIVTY:The principle of linguistic relativity holds that the structure of a language affects the ways in which its speakers are able to conceptualize their world, i.e. their world view.

would love to explore that further if pointed in the right direction.

Thinking about the question of gender, in kiswahili as in many other african languages, you would have to specify who the actor was before we can decide whether they are male or female.
E.g. Alikuja jana. Modify: Kaka alikuja jana.
In English, there are pronouns that assign gender.
E.g. She/He came yesterday.

Also trying hard to figure out whether there is a kiswahili equivalent for "guilty". We are limited to saying "nilifanya ama sikufanya". Which only communicates the fact that an action took place. There mental aspect (attributing liability/ ascribing responsibility to the individual) is
left out. The closest we can get to distance ourselves from the action which we think we are not responsible for is @ Impunity's "makosa imefanyika". (implying siyo mimi).
josiah33
#19 Posted : Monday, March 19, 2012 6:08:35 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 1,777
masukuma wrote:
josiah33 wrote:
For Sport wrote:
Very interesting.

Most Kenyans speak at least 3 languages with varying degrees of fluency..English, Kiswahili & the mother tongue. I wonder how this affects / shapes our thinking.

I was wondering the same. What becomes of our thinking with our smattering of English, Kiswahili and a mother tongue?

my theory is that most arable farmers in africa were not good navigators due to the tribal nature of their surrounding (never ventured off the beaten path), perhaps the nilotic pastrolists would comment on how easy it is to give directions using their languages.
back to the point of 3 languages, for me regardless of how long i speak english, I still think in swahili (sheng) and therefore i do a quick translation from sheng/swa to english - occasionally, it backfires when i have to rearrange words e.g. "unaenda wapi" can be "you are going where?" instead of "where are you going?".
however i still communicate. having 2-3 languages is beneficial beneficial as you travel since u can use these languages as a basis to learn similar languages (swahili for arabic, urdu and hindi), english for french and possibly spanish, for kyuks bantu like languages. that's my experience.

I think that multilinguals just like bilinguals in some study, change how they see the world depending on which language they are speaking.
masukuma
#20 Posted : Monday, March 19, 2012 6:10:05 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,821
Location: Nairobi
i came to a place where I said -shauri yao, its their problem to try and understand me.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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