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tithing
kyt
#21 Posted : Thursday, January 05, 2012 1:51:37 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 11/7/2007
Posts: 2,182
foe those saying that pastors demand the tithe, that money is not yours in the first place. that is God's money ten percent of your income belongs to God. that should very clear to all who say they are Christians!! whether the pastors demands or not, that is not an issue!
LOVE WHAT YOU DO, DO WHAT YOU LOVE.
McReggae
#22 Posted : Thursday, January 05, 2012 1:54:03 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/17/2008
Posts: 23,365
Location: Nairobi
kyt wrote:
Boss if you don't tithe, the bible says you are "cursed with a curse" and for the one that asked whether it is relevant in the new testament, do you only read the new testament in the bible?? wacha mchezo!!


Haven't you read Mtu Biz's explanation on the origin and why tithing was then necessary???
..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
Tebes
#23 Posted : Thursday, January 05, 2012 1:58:43 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 11/26/2008
Posts: 2,097
Tithing has been turned into a money minting avenue to enrich a few. I know of several pastors who started poor and now live large.




"Never regret, if its good, its wonderful. If its bad, its experience."
Mtu Biz
#24 Posted : Thursday, January 05, 2012 2:02:04 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/16/2007
Posts: 1,320
kyt wrote:
Boss if you don't tithe, the bible says you are "cursed with a curse" and for the one that asked whether it is relevant in the new testament, do you only read the new testament in the bible?? wacha mchezo!!



@ kyt.

Read the bible in context. Don't just quote phrases, understand the context.

God was talking to the Jewish nation of Israel when he said that.

And for good reason. If the Jews did not tithe they were literally defrauding the Tribe of Levi of their God given inheritance...as they were not alloted land along with the other tribes.. their inheritance was the tithe... which was always paid for in form of food, not currency. (currency existed in that time)

Does it make sense, that the same God who while you were yet in sin, sent his Son to Die and take the fall for your sin will in the same breath curse you if you do not PAY him ?

Please understand the REASON for the tithe in the bible.
Sola Scriptura


Mtu Biz
#25 Posted : Thursday, January 05, 2012 2:06:10 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/16/2007
Posts: 1,320
kyt wrote:
foe those saying that pastors demand the tithe, that money is not yours in the first place. that is God's money ten percent of your income belongs to God. that should very clear to all who say they are Christians!! whether the pastors demands or not, that is not an issue!



smile

You remind me of me sometime back.



Sola Scriptura


For Sport
#26 Posted : Thursday, January 05, 2012 2:27:27 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 12/23/2010
Posts: 1,229
Mtu Biz wrote:
2012 wrote:
kenmac wrote:
for those who tithe, do you calculate it before or after tax? In businesses, do you calculate on total revenue or after deducting expenses.


A good pastor I know was asked the same question and his answer was:
Give what you think God gives you, if gross- give him gross, if net give him net.



@ 2012
What can a creature possibly give to his creator?

What God gives you? God OWNS you.

- the tithe was a tax imposed by law on the Jewish state of Israel for the upkeep of the Jewish tribe of Levi who were given no inheritance when the land was divided to the 12 tribes but the tithe (always in some form of foodstuff) was their inheritance.

Tithing today is out of context as far as the bible is concerned.



Parallelism. Taxes & Tithes, Earthly authority & heavenly authority.
"Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's"

Earthly...
Jesus asked for a coin.
He asked whose image was on the coin.
It was Caeser's. Therefore render unto Caeser....

Heavenly..
Whose image are you made in?
Ceaser's image is stamped on a coin.
Where is God's image stamped?
So what is it you're supposed to be giving God?
If you give God what is His (your heart, life - whatever His image is stamped on), these other questions regarding money become mmot


Curious: Why is it that Churches apply for tax exempt status if the Bible clearly states that we should render unto Caeser?





Tebes
#27 Posted : Thursday, January 05, 2012 2:28:04 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 11/26/2008
Posts: 2,097
Mtu Biz wrote:
kyt wrote:
foe those saying that pastors demand the tithe, that money is not yours in the first place. that is God's money ten percent of your income belongs to God. that should very clear to all who say they are Christians!! whether the pastors demands or not, that is not an issue!



smile

You remind me of me sometime back.





What did you used to do?
"Never regret, if its good, its wonderful. If its bad, its experience."
mukiha
#28 Posted : Thursday, January 05, 2012 2:29:53 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/27/2008
Posts: 4,114
Mtu Biz wrote:
mukiha wrote:
Mtu Biz wrote:
.....I do not dispute that churches do a lot of good.
So do some NGO's and many anonymous individuals.

What iam saying is, it is not biblical for any church or pastor to demand a tenth of anyone's income.


I agree. The moment it is demanded, it ceases to be giving... and begins to head towards extortion! Nevertheless, people need to be candidly reminded about it.

One of the best ways I find is telling people about projects carried out, those ongoing and those planned... and the amounts required. When people see what their giving is achieving, they give cheerfully... and the pastor has brought them closer to God, for God loves a cheerful giver.


The pastors/churches should encourage people to Give period.

The tithe demanded or otherwise is out of context in the church.

Picture this.

Your local county introduces a new tax for the purpose of building a road.
The people comply and start paying up.
Soon enough the road is finished and is in use.
However,
The local county does not stop collecting taxes for the new road...

You happen move to another county where there is no such tax the roads were built up and paid for long ago..

Tithing is like paying the tax demanded in your previous county for the specific purpose of building a road, into the new county where such a tax does not exist. smile

hope it makes sense.









I don't think the two situations are the same.

I think you are assuming that the money goes to the same use it was going to during the old Jewish era. This is why I said that the money given to the church regularly has been given the wrong name - tithe.

Still, the pastor and the whole church administration NEED a salary. The question is, after paying salaries, what happens to the remainder? Or are the salaries adjusted upwards as the contributions grow?

This is where the question of trust comes in. If you can't trust the leadership in your church, what are you doing there? You must change - either the leadership, or the church (i.e. go to another one)

In my church they insist very much that we attend the AGMs so that we can see how the money is spent. The also give regular information about projects that they are involved in, both emergency projects (e.g. feeding and housing victims of the Sinai fire) and long term projects (e.g. street children rehabilitation through one of the most well-organised football clubs in Kenya).

When I see the church touching the society in such an important manner, I'd be an ignorant idiot not to give it 10% of my income regularly - call it tithe or tax if you wish, I really don't care about the name!
Nothing is real unless it can be named; nothing has value unless it can be sold; money is worthless unless you spend it.
mukiha
#29 Posted : Thursday, January 05, 2012 2:35:10 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/27/2008
Posts: 4,114
For Sport wrote:
....Curious: Why is it that Churches apply for tax exempt status if the Bible clearly states that we should render unto Caeser?



Because the law of "Caesar" (in this case, Government of Kenya) allows for it! Caesar does not expect a church to pay him taxes so, really, the church does not owe him anything.

However: the salaries earned by the church's employees (pastors and other administrators) are fully taxable like everyone else's.
Nothing is real unless it can be named; nothing has value unless it can be sold; money is worthless unless you spend it.
Mtu Biz
#30 Posted : Thursday, January 05, 2012 2:37:37 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/16/2007
Posts: 1,320
mukiha wrote:
Mtu Biz wrote:
mukiha wrote:
Mtu Biz wrote:
.....I do not dispute that churches do a lot of good.
So do some NGO's and many anonymous individuals.

What iam saying is, it is not biblical for any church or pastor to demand a tenth of anyone's income.


I agree. The moment it is demanded, it ceases to be giving... and begins to head towards extortion! Nevertheless, people need to be candidly reminded about it.

One of the best ways I find is telling people about projects carried out, those ongoing and those planned... and the amounts required. When people see what their giving is achieving, they give cheerfully... and the pastor has brought them closer to God, for God loves a cheerful giver.


The pastors/churches should encourage people to Give period.

The tithe demanded or otherwise is out of context in the church.

Picture this.

Your local county introduces a new tax for the purpose of building a road.
The people comply and start paying up.
Soon enough the road is finished and is in use.
However,
The local county does not stop collecting taxes for the new road...

You happen move to another county where there is no such tax the roads were built up and paid for long ago..

Tithing is like paying the tax demanded in your previous county for the specific purpose of building a road, into the new county where such a tax does not exist. smile

hope it makes sense.









I don't think the two situations are the same.

I think you are assuming that the money goes to the same use it was going to during the old Jewish era. This is why I said that the money given to the church regularly has been given the wrong name - tithe.

Still, the pastor and the whole church administration NEED a salary. The question is, after paying salaries, what happens to the remainder? Or are the salaries adjusted upwards as the contributions grow?

This is where the question of trust comes in. If you can't trust the leadership in your church, what are you doing there? You must change - either the leadership, or the church (i.e. go to another one)

In my church they insist very much that we attend the AGMs so that we can see how the money is spent. The also give regular information about projects that they are involved in, both emergency projects (e.g. feeding and housing victims of the Sinai fire) and long term projects (e.g. street children rehabilitation through one of the most well-organised football clubs in Kenya).

When I see the church touching the society in such an important manner, I'd be an ignorant idiot not to give it 10% of my income regularly - call it tithe or tax if you wish, I really don't care about the name!


Giving in this regard is Good and commendable.
This is charity.

It is akina @ kyt who i fear pay tithes because they are afraid of being "cursed with a curse"!

It is not uncommon for such a person to withhold financial assistance to a needy neighbor or relative because they MUST tithe first.
Sola Scriptura


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