wazua Sat, Jan 18, 2025
Welcome Guest Search | Active Topics | Log In | Register

4 Pages<1234>
TRACKING RISK
Scubidu
#21 Posted : Friday, December 23, 2011 9:06:47 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/4/2009
Posts: 700
Location: Nairobi
Scooby wrote:
Hi Scubidu,

My interpretation of what you are asking is whether AA’s assertion that the market prices of the bonds are understated is true. That being the case, there are two things that we can consider.

Firstly, the value of bonds in Kenya is largely attributed to the level of government borrowing and the consistent election cycle like the current pre election jitters. So, how comfortable are they that the clean prices for tradeable securities are purely driven by market forces?

I remember that we were talking, a while ago, about the HF bond that has an interest rate of 8.5% for the fixed rate portion. If you look at today's bond pricelist (i.e. 22 December 2011), the last clean price for that bond was 100 implying the yield for this bond is 8.5%.

In contrast, the latest NSE yield curve (as of 16 December 2011) indicates that the yield for a six year bond is 14.376%. So the “market price” for the fixed portion of the HF bond should far much lower than 100.

Secondly, I'll be curious as to how they derive their yield curve i.e. do the use on the run (recently issued), off the run (old issues) or a mixture of both. Tell me if they do have yields for, say, six or seven years.

Let me know what your views are on what I have mentioned.

Regards


@scooby. I suppose we need to see improved liquidity across the entire bond universe to decide whether prices are market driven. There's an assertion from the NSE itself that about 70% of prices on the market are off market.

This has been a key problem for the long tenored portion of the yield curve that has seen low volumes or recent primary issues so a majority of market perception are guess-estimates.

There's no benchmark which leads me to believe that AAs benchmark is neither here or there. I talked to AA recently and they use short end on the run issues and long end off the run issues. Six, seven year yields are extrapolated.

As you mentioned the HF bond is priced based on a comparable tenor, but that in itself can be misleading as it's difficult to understand how the NSE derives it's yield curve. Bloomberg also have a yield curve derived from a daily market survey (blind leading the blind).

The only thing i like about the AA benchmark is that clean price is tracked using face value as a reference. So it's easier to track the performance of the market (rather than changes in the yield curve). According to AA the clean price was 110 at the end of 2010 and is now 89. Can we compare this to the NSE index return?
“We are the middle children of history man, no purpose or place. We have no great war, no great depression. Our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives!" – Tyler Durden
Scubidu
#22 Posted : Friday, December 23, 2011 9:16:41 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/4/2009
Posts: 700
Location: Nairobi
emlyn ngwiri wrote:
@ scooby i thought a regular "buy and hold" is passive and thats what Old mutual do in one of their product offerings money market fund?

@ scubidu would investing in the fixed for floating rate cfc bond be pegged on the regular T/bill? (FIXED ELEMENT ONLY) and the tracking risk would average out depending on the high t/bill or t/bond returns being offered?.





@emlyn. to the best of my knowledge floating rate is pegged on the 182 Tbill and repriced at par after each coupon payment (there's a min & max rate set). No peg on the fixed. I hope ive understood ur question as well. If the question also includes whether u'd invest in one rather than the other... that would be a function of liquidity (for me).

Depending on the what benchmark you use, will largely determine the tracking risk. There's no market benchmark. I'm not sure i follow your line of thinking regarding tracking risk averaging out-could you expound.
“We are the middle children of history man, no purpose or place. We have no great war, no great depression. Our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives!" – Tyler Durden
Scooby
#23 Posted : Friday, December 23, 2011 8:26:39 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 9/2/2006
Posts: 121
emlyn ngwiri wrote:
@scooby

passive strategies are designed to make a return that does not beat the market. so buy and hold strategies are clinically designed for that purpose (for both bonds and equities). aren't they?


Emlyn,

I do agree with you that a passive strategy is not designed to generate alpha. And one of the ways that an investor can pursue a passive strategy is to engage in buy and hold strategy.

But there are a couple of things that I need to clarify for you, if you don’t mind.

In order to make sure that an investor’s portfolio is indeed a passive portfolio, an investor needs to compare the features of their passive portfolio with that of a benchmark portfolio.

Here are some of the features that I would look out for when reviewing a fixed income portfolio in the Kenyan context

Firstly, the weighted average duration of the portfolio vs. the benchmark. If your portfolio has a larger duration than the benchmark, there is a higher chance that your portfolio has greater fluctuations when interest rates fluctuate like the current interest rate environment which means that your tracking risk is high

Secondly is sector exposure i.e. what percentage of your portfolio is made up of corporate or treasury securities. A higher exposure for a passive portfolio than for a benchmark would mean that the investor has a greater credit risk exposure hence greater risk of defaults

Lastly is whether the passive portfolio is a barbell or bullet portfolio as compared to the benchmark. This is to evaluate the effects of a flattening or steeping of the yield curve as is the case in Kenya right now – the yield curve is inverted.

So, while you are “buying and holding” your portfolio, its characteristics could be materially different from the benchmark, thereby increasing your tracking risk.

FYI, “buy and hold” was a termed coined by accountants when they were trying to understand how financial institutions manage their investment portfolios. For instance, if a bank has a long term liability that is payable, say after ten years.

What it would ideally do (as part of its asset liability matching process) is to purchase investments with a similar duration so that that investment matures at the same time as when the liability becomes due.

Hope this helps and do enjoy your Christmas holiday.

Regards
Scooby
#24 Posted : Friday, December 23, 2011 8:38:38 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 9/2/2006
Posts: 121
Scubidu,

I gather you are asking whether I would go for the AA estimate of 89 or the NSE estimate of 70.

I was told that NSE, in deriving their yield curve, do use transactions with a minimum value of Kshs. 10 million and above. Am not sure if that is the case right now.

I gather AA donot have such a threshold, right?

Regards and Merry Christmas.

Scubidu
#25 Posted : Saturday, December 24, 2011 3:01:17 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/4/2009
Posts: 700
Location: Nairobi
Scooby wrote:
Scubidu,

I gather you are asking whether I would go for the AA estimate of 89 or the NSE estimate of 70.

I was told that NSE, in deriving their yield curve, do use transactions with a minimum value of Kshs. 10 million and above. Am not sure if that is the case right now.

I gather AA donot have such a threshold, right?

Regards and Merry Christmas.



@scooby. Nope wasn't asking that. I'm asking two questions. Can you track the performance of a bond market by looking at the weighted average clean price of a portfolio? Can the NSE yield constitute a market benchmark?

I believe NSE do have a minimum of 50 million (I think) and observe prices over a two week period. They say they ignore any price 300bps below/above market, but have no benchmark yield curve to determine where market is (so it makes little sense). AA does have a threshold, 50 million, where prices are observed over a week.

Seems a lot of what NSE says is a market driven price is very subjective (i.e., depending on how they want their curve to look). You'll notice many of the traded bond prices on the NSE have erroneous/(wrong) clean prices nway, and the level of scrutiny of this transactions is minimal on the part of the NSE.

Nway my friend have a merry merry Christmas
“We are the middle children of history man, no purpose or place. We have no great war, no great depression. Our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives!" – Tyler Durden
emlyn ngwiri
#26 Posted : Tuesday, January 03, 2012 5:58:29 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 8/12/2010
Posts: 129
Location: nairobi
@scubidu, is the pinebridge 27 index a good index to value stocks
Scooby
#27 Posted : Wednesday, January 04, 2012 9:56:19 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 9/2/2006
Posts: 121
Scubidu,

You can track the performance over time by looking at movement in clean prices. Am wondering how you would determine the weighted average clean price...is it by the size of the issue?

And for the yield curve to constitute a benchmark, NSE should disclose which bonds they used to derive the yield curve from. I guess that what you are alluding to with your second query, right?

Regards
Scubidu
#28 Posted : Thursday, January 05, 2012 8:30:36 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/4/2009
Posts: 700
Location: Nairobi
emlyn ngwiri wrote:
@scubidu, is the pinebridge 27 index a good index to value stocks


I talked to them. I don't have faith in an institution who can't commit a fund/portfolio tailered it's own index. Even though it incorporates dividend returns it's correlation with NSE 20 is almost 100%. As them for historical index levels and compare to NSE 20.
“We are the middle children of history man, no purpose or place. We have no great war, no great depression. Our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives!" – Tyler Durden
Scubidu
#29 Posted : Thursday, January 05, 2012 8:35:33 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/4/2009
Posts: 700
Location: Nairobi
Scooby wrote:
Scubidu,

You can track the performance over time by looking at movement in clean prices. Am wondering how you would determine the weighted average clean price...is it by the size of the issue?

And for the yield curve to constitute a benchmark, NSE should disclose which bonds they used to derive the yield curve from. I guess that what you are alluding to with your second query, right?

Regards


@scooby. Yes using the weighted average size of the issue. And yes the NSE should disclose the on-the-run issues and off-the-run estimates in deriving the yield curve. I talked to a guy whose seen their model and it has a lot of errors.

So theoretically the market only has two workable yield curves, NSE and Bloomberg and surprisingly they have a 300bps spread between them from the intermediate to long end. That's a recipe for massive mispricing if you ask me. CBK relies totally on the NSE yield curve for discounting.
“We are the middle children of history man, no purpose or place. We have no great war, no great depression. Our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives!" – Tyler Durden
KiFagio
#30 Posted : Thursday, January 05, 2012 11:58:23 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 9/27/2011
Posts: 123
Location: Nairobi
GGK wrote:
This is one of those threads that I can't contribute. But it is enlightening all the same.

@GGK U R better off! Its all Martian to me. Pls tell me in simple language, what this lingo/jargon means. And how come only 3 wazuans R contributing? Where R the rest? QW??
youcan'tstopusnow
#31 Posted : Thursday, January 05, 2012 12:44:55 PM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 3/24/2010
Posts: 6,779
Location: Black Africa
KiFagio wrote:
GGK wrote:
This is one of those threads that I can't contribute. But it is enlightening all the same.

@GGK U R better off! Its all Martian to me. Pls tell me in simple language, what this lingo/jargon means. And how come only 3 wazuans R contributing? Where R the rest? QW??

Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly
Kumbe siko peke yangu. This sounds like language ya watu wa CFA
GOD BLESS YOUR LIFE
emlyn ngwiri
#32 Posted : Monday, January 09, 2012 6:39:26 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 8/12/2010
Posts: 129
Location: nairobi
@scubidu how would mispricing of securities arise yet the we are "semi strong" form efficient?

The yield curve also acts as benchmark for the pricing of other / future security issues. How then can mispricing occur if the Yield curve is derived from weighted average of interest rates of different T/bonds (from the secondary mkt) and T/bills?

rgds
Ceinz
#33 Posted : Monday, January 09, 2012 7:19:31 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 5/7/2009
Posts: 1,032
Location: Sea of Transquility
youcan'tstopusnow wrote:
KiFagio wrote:
GGK wrote:
This is one of those threads that I can't contribute. But it is enlightening all the same.

@GGK U R better off! Its all Martian to me. Pls tell me in simple language, what this lingo/jargon means. And how come only 3 wazuans R contributing? Where R the rest? QW??

Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly
Kumbe siko peke yangu. This sounds like language ya watu wa CFA


Separating the mboys from river-road speculators.d'oh!
“small step for man”
GGK
#34 Posted : Monday, January 09, 2012 8:06:41 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 11/21/2006
Posts: 608
Location: Ruiru
Ceinz wrote:
youcan'tstopusnow wrote:
KiFagio wrote:
GGK wrote:
This is one of those threads that I can't contribute. But it is enlightening all the same.

@GGK U R better off! Its all Martian to me. Pls tell me in simple language, what this lingo/jargon means. And how come only 3 wazuans R contributing? Where R the rest? QW??

Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly
Kumbe siko peke yangu. This sounds like language ya watu wa CFA


Separating the mboys from river-road speculators.d'oh!


Someone is doing an MBA research here. Wazua on another level. Sisi tumezoea hesabu ya mashinani
"..I am because we are. "― Ubuntu, Umtu,
Scubidu
#35 Posted : Tuesday, January 10, 2012 8:55:38 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/4/2009
Posts: 700
Location: Nairobi
emlyn ngwiri wrote:
@scubidu how would mispricing of securities arise yet the we are "semi strong" form efficient?

The yield curve also acts as benchmark for the pricing of other / future security issues. How then can mispricing occur if the Yield curve is derived from weighted average of interest rates of different T/bonds (from the secondary mkt) and T/bills?

rgds


@emlyn. The yield curve does act as a benchmark. However, if you look at the debates pipo have on wazua on inflation, ccys, economic data, everyone has so many differing opinions. Macro information is not easily accessible and CBK doesn't make pricing of it's auctions transparent. We have a poor information curve.

NSE bond mart is OTC, it's not efficient at all esp when the exchange tells us that 70% of pricing on the market is 'off market' (what they think is 'on' or 'off' market is another debate). ive not seen bid/ask on nellydata, so I assume there must be many arbitrage opps due to peeps using their own pricing curves.

This should interest you:

http://www.vanguardngr.c...s-first-ever-bond-index/
“We are the middle children of history man, no purpose or place. We have no great war, no great depression. Our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives!" – Tyler Durden
emlyn ngwiri
#36 Posted : Tuesday, January 10, 2012 9:39:56 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 8/12/2010
Posts: 129
Location: nairobi
@scubidu

riskless arbitrage? really?
Scubidu
#37 Posted : Tuesday, January 10, 2012 12:14:45 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/4/2009
Posts: 700
Location: Nairobi
@emlyn. did i say riskless arbitrage? talk to ur local broker and ask them the average bid/ask spread on a Kenyan infrastructure bond.
“We are the middle children of history man, no purpose or place. We have no great war, no great depression. Our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives!" – Tyler Durden
emlyn ngwiri
#38 Posted : Tuesday, January 10, 2012 2:13:12 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 8/12/2010
Posts: 129
Location: nairobi
@scubidu

I say risk less because of the short time frame involved between buying and selling the asset. if risk-less arbitrage occurs without investment there is no rate of return or anything like it because the asset is immediately sold. One simply makes a profit on the deal.

Does my view hold? or maybe i am seeing the coin differently, kindly elaborate

rgds
Scubidu
#39 Posted : Tuesday, January 10, 2012 3:13:54 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/4/2009
Posts: 700
Location: Nairobi
emlyn ngwiri wrote:
@scubidu

I say risk less because of the short time frame involved between buying and selling the asset. if risk-less arbitrage occurs without investment there is no rate of return or anything like it because the asset is immediately sold. One simply makes a profit on the deal.

Does my view hold? or maybe i am seeing the coin differently, kindly elaborate

rgds


I do not follow. The time frame has something to do with the arbitrage (it's OTC market... not that fast). Perhaps you can give me an example?
“We are the middle children of history man, no purpose or place. We have no great war, no great depression. Our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives!" – Tyler Durden
emlyn ngwiri
#40 Posted : Tuesday, January 10, 2012 5:53:04 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 8/12/2010
Posts: 129
Location: nairobi
what i mean is arbitrage is sustained only for a short period before the forces of demand and supply regularise the situation.

Assume that a stock is trading in two markets simultaneously Kenya and Uganda. Suppose the stock is trading at kes 100 in the Ugandan market and kesh 98/- in Kenya. We simply buy a share for kesh 98 in Kenya and immediately sell it for kesh 100 in Uganda. We make an easy kes 2 at no risk and we did not have to put up any funds of our own. The sale of the stock at kesh 100 was more than adequate to finance the purchase of the stock at kesh 98.

hope im not too off

rgds
Users browsing this topic
Guest (5)
4 Pages<1234>
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Copyright © 2025 Wazua.co.ke. All Rights Reserved.