Wazua
»
Investor
»
Offshore
»
List of companies that conspire to defraud shareholders
Rank: Member Joined: 6/22/2011 Posts: 561 Location: House
|
@Kihangiri-stop lowering your guard, u are an american are u????$ The letter of engagement clearly states what a company wants the auditor to undertake. In most audits fraud detection is not part of the engagement/objective. The duty to detect fraud rests with the Big Cats-read Directors and has never been delegated to the auditors not unless they are carrying out INVESTIGATIVE AUDIT
|
|
|
Rank: Member Joined: 2/25/2010 Posts: 158
|
This debate is very interesting. However as a student of fraud investigations, i can assure you that it is very difficult to detect frauds that are done outside the normal business records. External auditors work with what is provided to them by the management. If management connive to falsefy financial statements that are used by auditors to audit the company, how will it unearth any fraud? In most cases, it is insiders who unravel fraud. You can research all fraudulent activities unearthed in recent times, its insiders who blow the whistle like happened in the case of CMC. The incoming CEO blew the whistle, he is the unsang hero in this story. If we can have more insiders with integrity blowing the whistle on unsavory conduct then we will be able to fight fraud that is being perpetrated against shareholders and other stakeholders. Fraud is rive in Kenya, both in public and private sector. We need to join hands to fight it. My take on all this is, we need to introduce a law that gives incentives to insiders (both in private and public sectors) to blow whistles against fraud. A good case study is USA which has a law that rewards people who unearth fraud. Many people even make a living out of this business Keeping it all in the family
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 7/23/2008 Posts: 3,017
|
The problem with many shareholder's is that they have never understood the role of auditors. Auditors express their opinon on whether "the financial statements are materially mistated", their work is not to detect fraud, simply because the procedures they apply are not capable of doing so. Auditors opinion is based on materiality which in many cases is a very big number. This means that should they detect problems below this numbers, they can report this to management/directors, but are not allowed to disclose the same to the shareholders. But more importantly because a statutory audit is more of a post morterm, the correct controls required to safe guard a company are the preventive one's which are supposed to be implementd by directors and management. "The purpose of bureaucracy is to compensate for incompetence and lack of discipline." James Collins
|
|
|
Rank: Member Joined: 4/2/2011 Posts: 629 Location: Nai
|
Kihangeri wrote:2012 wrote:simonkabz wrote:Define Auditing.....(I thought detection of fraud aint their objective) So their work is to rubber stamp whatever they are told? And lick the directors rear end if asked to do so? Detection and Prevention of Frauds: Frauds are always committed deliberately and intentionally to defraud the proprietors of the organization. If the frauds remain undetected, they may affect the opinion of the auditor on the financial condition and the working results of the organization. It is, therefore, necessary that the auditor should exercise utmost care to detect such frauds. Now that Pricewaterhouse is auditing CMC records, what is the objective? Ask Bill Lay and he will tell you. Africans are inherently disadvantaged in seeing reality for what it is. 1. PwC are carrying out a forensic investigation also known as a forensic audit which is different from a statutory audit. 2. Someone here claims that there was obvious misstatement of financial statements that the auditors did not detect. I say no, there was none. The management of the company agreed to pay whatever it paid Andy Forwarders, inflated or not. As long as the payments to Andy Forwarders were accurately recorded on the financial statements, that does not represent misstatement of financial statements.
|
|
|
Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/5/2007 Posts: 627
|
How would an auditor uncover a fraud being perpetrated by directors of a company? Directors who appointed the auditor and whose responsibility it is to avail the financial statements to be audited? What should be made clear is this:
1. It is the responsibility of the company to prepare the financial statements and make sure they reveal the true financial position of the company. Due diligence here is exercised by the directors, not the auditors. If the service provider is overcharging the company, the prerogative is with the management to compare such charges with other service providers and rectify the position.
2. The auditor's work is to review the financial statements as & when availed by the company. The auditor will design tests that will check the integrity of the figures in the statements. As long as the figures are supported (LPOs, invoices, DNs, 3.0), the auditor has no further work. Where there are queries, the auditor will raise the issue with the company for explanation. If a good explanation is not forthcoming, they auditor can qualify the accounts.
3. The auditor does not go into comparing invoices of service providers to check whether the charges are fair. That is the work of the company's accountants & management as stated above and laying the blame of overcharged services on an auditor is very far-fetched!
So for all you saying that an audit firm (whether PwC or Deloitte) are culpable in any way in the CMC or Uchumi issues, you could not be more wrong. As already said by many people, an external auditor cannot unearth a fraud that was done off the records or, as in the case of CMC, where all transactions are well supported (despite the overcharging)!
|
|
|
Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/25/2007 Posts: 1,574
|
2012 wrote:Sure wrote:Holy shit, why would anyone pay millions of shillings to an auditor who cannot even smell a rat? Maybe they are paid to close their nose if you know what I mean. The Auditors usually have both hands inside the cookie jar.  They are involved in the corruption. Set out to correct the world's wrongs and you will most certainly wind up adding to them.
|
|
|
Rank: Member Joined: 10/14/2011 Posts: 661
|
jguru wrote:2012 wrote:Sure wrote:Holy shit, why would anyone pay millions of shillings to an auditor who cannot even smell a rat? Maybe they are paid to close their nose if you know what I mean. The Auditors usually have both hands inside the cookie jar.  They are involved in the corruption. THE BOTTOM LINE Auditor ‘watchdog’ not ‘bloodhound’ http://www.thebottomline...ticle&articleid=317
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 3/29/2011 Posts: 2,242
|
It is purely the responsibility of management to ensure adequate controls are in place to safeguard an entity's assets. Unearthing scams created by management is no auditors business. Your guess is as good as mine of what would have happened had the CMC MD been given time to clear his desk! The file the safe would never have been found! "Things that matter most must never be at the mercy of things that matter least." Goethe
|
|
|
Rank: Veteran Joined: 2/10/2010 Posts: 1,001 Location: River Road
|
interesting debate, in my view audited accounts add very value when valuing a company. I have seen my accountant cook books the auditors didn't notice the glaring errors and of course he takes them out for lunch. It's always upon the investor to put a true value to an investment, it's a risk that's why you invest in a company you understand. if you are purchasing land you don't go to the government valuer to give you report, you must do the due diligence yourself, check the property if it has squatters.
|
|
|
Rank: Member Joined: 2/20/2007 Posts: 359
|
And what do we learn from this informative discussion?
Steer clear of companies run and managed by appointees of one-wo/man shows or by a small clique of friends (or foreigners), or family business. Stick to huge companies not controlled by any one person, clique or family, in which case there will definitely be whistle blowing if something untoward happens.
To my layman mind therefore, companies that fall under such x categories may include ACCS, TCL, Uchumi, EACBL, Olympia, Sameer companies, Total and Safcom and Unga (for price transfers), and to some extend, Centum. Etc. Am not suggesting there is wrong-doing there, just that if there were, it would be near impossible to find out.
|
|
|
Wazua
»
Investor
»
Offshore
»
List of companies that conspire to defraud shareholders
Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.
|