Rank: Member Joined: 7/21/2010 Posts: 249 Location: nairobi
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VituVingiSana wrote:KAA was run by corrupt muhoho for many years. It would not surprise me if he had a hand in these fake allocations. The 'new' KAA might look at it differently...  very very true! i totally agree.... ..desire to succeed is always fighting with fear of failure..
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 3/25/2010 Posts: 939 Location: Nai
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The Minister alleged that all title deeds if any allocated to the same land are fake he also suggested that other allocated in other areas in mavoko were fake and in some other cases multiple titles issued to same piece of land
am just wondering if you camped at the lands office went through all processes and had that title deed issued to you by a land registration officer then kusema tu ukweli are we safe buying land anywhere around mavoko.
How is the market doing around Mavoko??
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/23/2008 Posts: 3,017
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mukiha wrote:Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:(1)How does the law work, assuming the owners were innocent victims of fraud. My question is that they must have had some form of official govt document to even get approval to construct etc.
The fact that (2)KAA watched them construct those houses to me is proof enough that their rights to the land parcels were genuine. Any progressive judge who understands the spirit of the law should make KAA/gava to compensate them fully, for the.
Na hao wezi should be arrested, employees of KAA and the people they worked in cahoots with.
My advise to anybody whose proerty has been lost through gava's incompetence, just get yourself a good lawyer, sue and be patient. (1). Consider a different case: some one steals your car; goes to Kirinyaga rd and produces a fake logbook; sells the car to me (after colluding with a fellow at KRA to cheat me that the car is his). Two years later you find me driving it proudly around your estate. What would you do? Would you listen to my long stories of how I bought it, or would you simply want your car back? (2). KAA is a body corporate. It is not a person with eyes to see. Still, KAA issued numerous caveats warning people against interfering with that parcel of land. What more could they have done? When push came to shove, KAA acted... Mukiha, the scenario I was presenting is like this: in the fast instance, if someone meets a lady, he then seduces and they agree to marry, he goes to the village elders who accompany him to the girls place where he pays dowry and takes the girl as a wife. they then proceed to have a family including children. Five years down the line, your neighbour who has been observing all this wakes up one day and claims that the girl (now your wife) was actually married to him. The same elders who helped you pay dowry now turn on you and accuse you of stealing another man's wife and proceed to forcefully take her away. Who in this case suffers injustice. Assume the lady has had no input on all this. I apologise in advance for using this sexist example. "The purpose of bureaucracy is to compensate for incompetence and lack of discipline." James Collins
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Rank: Member Joined: 3/24/2010 Posts: 677 Location: Nairobi
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jamplu wrote:The Minister alleged that all title deeds if any allocated to the same land are fake he also suggested that other allocated in other areas in mavoko were fake and in some other cases multiple titles issued to same piece of land
am just wondering if you camped at the lands office went through all processes and had that title deed issued to you by a land registration officer then kusema tu ukweli are we safe buying land anywhere around mavoko.
How is the market doing around Mavoko??
Are we safe buying land ANYWHERE in Kenya?
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Rank: New-farer Joined: 11/15/2011 Posts: 25
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I fear not...the minister can render them illegal any given sunday If you knew that candlelight is fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/23/2008 Posts: 3,017
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jamplu wrote:The Minister alleged that all title deeds if any allocated to the same land are fake he also suggested that other allocated in other areas in mavoko were fake and in some other cases multiple titles issued to same piece of land
am just wondering if you camped at the lands office went through all processes and had that title deed issued to you by a land registration officer then kusema tu ukweli are we safe buying land anywhere around mavoko.
How is the market doing around Mavoko??
I really recent Orengo's management style, how is saying that the titles are fake helping the situation. In all the time he has been in that lands ministry, I have never heard him mention anything forward looking, his is to defend past errors and mediocrity by his officials - how about he comments about the Kenyans who just saw their futures changed forever? - How about telling us how fake titles are produced and what he plans to do to ensure kenyans don't lose their lifes work in future? - How about he educates Kenyans on how to correctly go about acquiring land and how to identify fake titles or procedures to ensure one buys genuine land? He is trully lost in the management and should go back to the back benches where he can shout himself hoarse as an opposition politician. "The purpose of bureaucracy is to compensate for incompetence and lack of discipline." James Collins
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Rank: New-farer Joined: 5/14/2010 Posts: 84 Location: Nairobi
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mukiha wrote:addidaskawembe wrote:Jus Blazin wrote:Just in the recent past, Kyangombe slum was demolished, and there were no outcries . @Jus Blazin, a demolished slum can be rebuilt with in day on any alternative space and the materials can be reused BUT the houses in Syokimau cannot be rebuilt, once demolished the investment is gone. Secondly Kyang'ombe slums was an encroachment, money never changed hands but in Syokimau people bought the land, took loans to construct e.t.c Any one in his right mind cannot compare the two !! Remember the affected guys conducted a thorough search and the Mlolongo Brothers had a title for the 4,000 acres. The social cost is the same: people are left homeless. Not true: money always changes hands when a slum is being developed. Local Chiefs and DOs collect a lot of money from the "Developers". I watched as Mukuru was enlarged to fill the space between Hazina estate and Hazina Shopping Complex. This happened immediately after a new Chief's office was erected in that area. The Chief was collecting 50k per plot to look the other way... @Mukiha, you are partly right but missed the point... In slums the owners (landlords) of those houses don't stay there,..the tenants don't mind if the slum is demolished as long as they rescue their household stuff and have an alternative place to move on. They have no stake in what's being demolished other than their furniture e.t.c.. BUT in Syokimau and other middle class developments the guys who stay in those houses are the actual owners and went through all processes to secure their property including approvals e.t.c. They have a huge stake in the property being demolished.. You cannot compare a slum demolition and a demolition like what happened in Syokimau.
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Rank: Bona-fide Joined: 11/2/2011 Posts: 191 Location: Nairobi
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It really is shocking where our country is headed to. Please correct me if I am wrong but the cabinet approved the destruction of properties on that land right? Which body constitutes the cabinet isnt it the MPs? The fact that KAA didnt pay land rates for the longest time yet the "land owners" did put any weight on their case if they decide to take KAA to court? This is a sad state of affairs that our justice system wont/cant help because it is not an independent body!! Follow us on Twitter @genghiscapital
“Be a yardstick of quality. Some people aren’t used to an environment where excellence is expected.” Steve Jobs,iGenius
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2008 Posts: 4,449
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After watching the deliberations in Parliament yesterday and facts as presented by the Lands Minister and Transport Minister, I have to agree the truth likely is with KAA.
MPs from the affected areas were playing to the gallery with emotions galore instead of addressing the Ministerial evidence as presented.
The title deed in KAA's name, a map confirming territory boundary as KAA described it, court orders stopping construction back in 2004/5..
COMPARED TO
Letters purporting to originate from Lands Ministry as written by an official suspended at the time of writing due to scandal with the Mayor's house, a letter allegedly written by Mr Orengo with his forged signature etc...If this is how the residents ended up with 'title deeds', they are obviously fake regardless of any GoK seal on them...
The Lands Minister even said he was willing to appear in camera and provide names of MP's who have used their govt positions to 'allocate' govt land and are now quite emotive on this demolitions as compared to any other due to their involvement or that of their friends or family.
I agree with the Transport Minister, it is the height of impunity when legislators likely acting to play to the gallery or servings of public land grabbers, use the floor of the house to table documents whose authenticity is clearly suspect and subvert the rule of law.
The Lands Minister and Transport Minister both sought to state that the individuals concerned at various points are known and prosecution be carried out.
The House Committees have this evidence to begin with.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/23/2008 Posts: 3,017
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ecstacy wrote:After watching the deliberations in Parliament yesterday and facts as presented by the Lands Minister and Transport Minister, I have to agree the truth likely is with KAA.
The title deed in KAA's name, a map confirming territory boundary as KAA described it, court orders stopping construction back in 2004/5
COMPARED TO
Letters purporting to originate from Lands Ministry as written by an official suspended at the time of writing due to scandal with the Mayor's house, a letter allegedly written by Mr Orengo with his forged signature etc...If this is how the residents ended up with 'title deeds', they are obviously fake.
The Lands Minister even said he was willing to appear in camera and provide names of MP's who have used their govt positions to 'allocate' govt land and are now quite emotive on this demolitions as compared to any other due to their involvement or that of their friends or family.
The Lands Minister and Transport Minister both sought to state that the individuals concerned at various points are known and prosecution be carried out.
The House Committees have this evidence to begin with.
My problem is this: - Why didn't KAA secure this land in 2004 when the people started invading it, why wait for 7 years to demolish the properties after people have resold the lands to innocent kenyans who then spent millions developing them. - Is every Kenyan supposed to know how Orengo's signature looks like so he can be able to tell when they see a fake? - If the minister knows the people who were involved in the shady lands deal, why does he need to appear in camera, why can't he name them on the floor of the house. "The purpose of bureaucracy is to compensate for incompetence and lack of discipline." James Collins
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Rank: New-farer Joined: 7/18/2010 Posts: 12 Location: nairobi
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Barrywhite wrote:@sceptic. The area in which demolitions took place is actually called Ungani; although the media widely reportedly it as Syokimau. Whereas the GOK can take any land anywhere they want (according to the law), where you are genuinely the owner of the land, you would be compensated. So you should be verifying the authencity of your title - l am assuming you have one. If verified, then you are safe. Any compulsory acquisition would compensate you both for the value of your property and the disturbance occasioned by you moving; and give you enough time to move! Still what happened in Ungani over the weekend was heartless and cannot be excused. yap,i do have a clean title,just wanted get another opinion. the people selling ungani and jumbo used the name syokimau to lure the buyers.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2008 Posts: 4,449
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Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:ecstacy wrote:After watching the deliberations in Parliament yesterday and facts as presented by the Lands Minister and Transport Minister, I have to agree the truth likely is with KAA.
The title deed in KAA's name, a map confirming territory boundary as KAA described it, court orders stopping construction back in 2004/5
COMPARED TO
Letters purporting to originate from Lands Ministry as written by an official suspended at the time of writing due to scandal with the Mayor's house, a letter allegedly written by Mr Orengo with his forged signature etc...If this is how the residents ended up with 'title deeds', they are obviously fake.
The Lands Minister even said he was willing to appear in camera and provide names of MP's who have used their govt positions to 'allocate' govt land and are now quite emotive on this demolitions as compared to any other due to their involvement or that of their friends or family.
The Lands Minister and Transport Minister both sought to state that the individuals concerned at various points are known and prosecution be carried out.
The House Committees have this evidence to begin with.
My problem is this: - Why didn't KAA secure this land in 2004 when the people started invading it, why wait for 7 years to demolish the properties after people have resold the lands to innocent kenyans who then spent millions developing them. - Is every Kenyan supposed to know how Orengo's signature looks like so he can be able to tell when they see a fake? - If the minister knows the people who were involved in the shady lands deal, why does he need to appear in camera, why can't he name them on the floor of the house. - KAA got orders stopping any property development on this land. Notice was issued. When push then came to shove, ignorance is not a defence. - Don't you wonder what informed the Judge to issue orders preventing development on this land?... - He was not there to mention their names. As an Honorable Member of Parliament, simply naming people without adducing evidence to support your claims is not in compliance with house rules.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2008 Posts: 4,449
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What we have above is a systemic collapse. Kenyan citizenry as chain end buyers remain collateral damage until we have nothing short of a systemic overhaul, actors and process.
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Rank: New-farer Joined: 11/15/2011 Posts: 25
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Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:ecstacy wrote:After watching the deliberations in Parliament yesterday and facts as presented by the Lands Minister and Transport Minister, I have to agree the truth likely is with KAA.
The title deed in KAA's name, a map confirming territory boundary as KAA described it, court orders stopping construction back in 2004/5
COMPARED TO
Letters purporting to originate from Lands Ministry as written by an official suspended at the time of writing due to scandal with the Mayor's house, a letter allegedly written by Mr Orengo with his forged signature etc...If this is how the residents ended up with 'title deeds', they are obviously fake.
The Lands Minister even said he was willing to appear in camera and provide names of MP's who have used their govt positions to 'allocate' govt land and are now quite emotive on this demolitions as compared to any other due to their involvement or that of their friends or family.
The Lands Minister and Transport Minister both sought to state that the individuals concerned at various points are known and prosecution be carried out.
The House Committees have this evidence to begin with.
My problem is this: - Why didn't KAA secure this land in 2004 when the people started invading it, why wait for 7 years to demolish the properties after people have resold the lands to innocent kenyans who then spent millions developing them. - Is every Kenyan supposed to know how Orengo's signature looks like so he can be able to tell when they see a fake? - If the minister knows the people who were involved in the shady lands deal, why does he need to appear in camera, why can't he name them on the floor of the house. I agree but KAA facts do not add up to me, I took the co-ordinates presented on this forum on where the demolitions took place.   When I compared the final look to the Nairobi County Map there was a disconnect.I fear the KAA /Orengo map is not correct as it goes into Machakos/Mavoko county.  Seems to me the Mavoko mayor was right,the fake guys at lands did a new "genuine map"  What we need is a solution on all fake titles and accountability from lands and compensation where government "mavoko council" approved the constructions. We need digital records available to the public NOW.. and the whole story ends If you knew that candlelight is fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/8/2007 Posts: 625 Location: Nairobi
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If someone wants to buy land that has a Certificate of Title from the Ministry of Lands, located near the "white House" in Syokimau would you advice him to go ahead? The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams.
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Rank: Member Joined: 12/2/2009 Posts: 286 Location: Nairobi
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@ Nobby ... confirm the authencity of the certificate of title, the duration of time remaining on the lease, and if its authentic and has sufficient time for you, you follow the laid down procedure to acquire. Certificate of Title is the final document you get for a leasehold. you get Title deeds for a freehold. Syokimau is a leasehold. The laudable is more often than not rendered laughable by overclaim
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/23/2008 Posts: 3,966
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Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:jamplu wrote:The Minister alleged that all title deeds if any allocated to the same land are fake he also suggested that other allocated in other areas in mavoko were fake and in some other cases multiple titles issued to same piece of land
am just wondering if you camped at the lands office went through all processes and had that title deed issued to you by a land registration officer then kusema tu ukweli are we safe buying land anywhere around mavoko.
How is the market doing around Mavoko??
I really recent Orengo's management style, how is saying that the titles are fake helping the situation. In all the time he has been in that lands ministry, I have never heard him mention anything forward looking, his is to defend past errors and mediocrity by his officials - how about he comments about the Kenyans who just saw their futures changed forever? - How about telling us how fake titles are produced and what he plans to do to ensure kenyans don't lose their lifes work in future? - How about he educates Kenyans on how to correctly go about acquiring land and how to identify fake titles or procedures to ensure one buys genuine land? He is trully lost in the management and should go back to the back benches where he can shout himself hoarse as an opposition politician. This is the problem of rewarding activists with cabinet positions. Luck is when Preparation meets Opportunity. ~ Lucius Annaeus Seneca
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/8/2007 Posts: 625 Location: Nairobi
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Barrywhite wrote:@ Nobby ... confirm the authencity of the certificate of title, the duration of time remaining on the lease, and if its authentic and has sufficient time for you, you follow the laid down procedure to acquire. Certificate of Title is the final document you get for a leasehold. you get Title deeds for a freehold. Syokimau is a leasehold. With this Syokimau issue is it still safe? The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams.
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Rank: New-farer Joined: 5/14/2010 Posts: 84 Location: Nairobi
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ecstacy wrote:Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:ecstacy wrote:After watching the deliberations in Parliament yesterday and facts as presented by the Lands Minister and Transport Minister, I have to agree the truth likely is with KAA.
The title deed in KAA's name, a map confirming territory boundary as KAA described it, court orders stopping construction back in 2004/5
COMPARED TO
Letters purporting to originate from Lands Ministry as written by an official suspended at the time of writing due to scandal with the Mayor's house, a letter allegedly written by Mr Orengo with his forged signature etc...If this is how the residents ended up with 'title deeds', they are obviously fake.
The Lands Minister even said he was willing to appear in camera and provide names of MP's who have used their govt positions to 'allocate' govt land and are now quite emotive on this demolitions as compared to any other due to their involvement or that of their friends or family.
The Lands Minister and Transport Minister both sought to state that the individuals concerned at various points are known and prosecution be carried out.
The House Committees have this evidence to begin with.
My problem is this: - Why didn't KAA secure this land in 2004 when the people started invading it, why wait for 7 years to demolish the properties after people have resold the lands to innocent kenyans who then spent millions developing them. - Is every Kenyan supposed to know how Orengo's signature looks like so he can be able to tell when they see a fake? - If the minister knows the people who were involved in the shady lands deal, why does he need to appear in camera, why can't he name them on the floor of the house. - KAA got orders stopping any property development on this land. Notice was issued. When push then came to shove, ignorance is not a defence. - Don't you wonder what informed the Judge to issue orders preventing development on this land?... - He was not there to mention their names. As an Honorable Member of Parliament, simply naming people without adducing evidence to support your claims is not in compliance with house rules. @ecstacy..take your time and use google earth to see where this land and you will understand why something just doesn't add up. 1. Its perpendicular to JKIA fence and stretches 2kms with a road on its left up to Syokimau-Katani Road. 2. There are plots on the left of this contentious plot separated from this plot by a road which isn't straight. 3. This is not a flight path unless they plan to construct another runway of which it won't be logical because JKIA would form an 'L' making it even more insecure. 4. This area is in Machakos and not Nrb, and if there was any claim by KAA, Mavoko should have been involved. In summary, the entire system was compromised to benefit a few individuals at the expense of the buyers. I'm not surprised that Orengo wants to give names in camera and he even said that the guy in his ministry who signed the titles was on suspension when he signed them. What did he do when he discovered this chap had signed and issued titles ? How many titles have been issued with similar problems ? NB: KAA claims ownership and so do the occupants because both groups have legal documents to back.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/4/2010 Posts: 1,668 Location: nairobi
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this is the same catastrophe that befalls kenyans every time a building collapses. Kenyans blame each other for a while and get lost in the maze they create while at it. The simplest solutions to these problems is not to reinvent the wheel but borrow heavily laws from developed countries even if it means complete cut-paste word for word. Issuance of titles should be done by Mavoko under collaboration with ministry of lands, Machakos, not headquaters. This way, Mavoko council will be able to approve buildings which they can ascertain rightful ownership since they hold the files. This is what happens in developed countries.Once an approval is granted and construction is complete, the house owner has full right of ownership since Govt. approved the construction and did not stop him during construction period. In Kenya, the local authorities absolve themselves by adding the 'Approved subject to land having no encumbrances' clause. Some smart lawyer should challenge this clause ,setting a precedence hence making Kenya a better country to live in. As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
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