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Ukabila Serikalini Kenya
MaichBlack
#21 Posted : Thursday, April 07, 2011 12:07:19 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2009
Posts: 7,452
Rahatupu wrote:
IMHO, this seems to me to be diversionary of the Kibunja Commission. The percentages presented don't seem to be drawn from the right places:

1. The figures of ethnic composition should be tallied not against plain Census figures but from college, university, poly and high school graduates this would give a better indication of how the distribution against "qualification".


Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause

Kibunja's census is simplistic to say the least. I'll tell you for a fact that for some reasons unknown to me, certain communities prefer certain professions. Examples;

1) There is a certain Kenyan community that is in love with the Engineering field. They work hard, get themselves admitted into various Engineering courses and work their backs off to be the best Engineers they can be. I am sure there is a larger percentage of Engineers from this community than the percentage of the community in the Kenyan population.

2) There is a certain community that is in love with finance/accounts/economics related fields. A query of the students admitted in these courses in the Universities, CPA and CFA candidates etc. will show you that the percentage of the candidates from this community in these courses in greater than the percentage of the community in the Kenya population.

If you are hiring and are blind to the tribe - as you should be - you will automatically end up with more engineers from tribe A and more accountants/financial analysts etc. from tribe B.
Never count on making a good sale. Have the purchase price be so attractive that even a mediocre sale gives good returns.
wakagori
#22 Posted : Thursday, April 07, 2011 12:12:10 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 7/12/2010
Posts: 201
(C&P)I don't condone discrimination but for this issue it's a matter of probability and statistics High school math. if you have 10 balls 7 Red, 2 Blue , 1 Yellow. What is the probability of getting a Red ball = 7/10 = 70%. The same applies to jobs. The bigger tribes send more applications and hence have higher success rates. Remember as much as equality is important, merit and quality should not be compromised. If the dorobo churn out 1 lawyer per year and they get 1 lawyer working at the CJ's or Ag's office, how & why else would you blame personalities? Its the govt job to improve and evenly distribute resouces like schools/colleges/universities in all counties/districts etc
MaichBlack
#23 Posted : Thursday, April 07, 2011 12:19:42 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2009
Posts: 7,452
I remember sometime back after a certain recruitment - I forget which - an MP provided a list 'proving' that a very big percentage of those who were hired were from one community. Shock on him! A list of all applicants was produced which showed that the percentage of those who applied from that community was far much higher than those hired. For example while the MP was complaining that say 25% of those hired were from community A, the list of applicants showed that 40% of the applicants were from community A, meaning that all other factors being constant, there might actually have been more successful applicants from the said community than the 25% the MP was complaining about.

We have a habit of over simplifying issues. May be we just don't like thinking or it is a reflection of the quality of education some of us had.
Never count on making a good sale. Have the purchase price be so attractive that even a mediocre sale gives good returns.
tajiri
#24 Posted : Thursday, April 07, 2011 12:27:27 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 9/28/2007
Posts: 44
Kibunjia's report may appear simplistic but that is because facts were distorted or some important facts were left out. We should look within ourselves and realise that tribalism is a big monster that needs to be sorted out. If you check parastatals or public companies where the government has influence e.g KPLC, KCB, KRA, CBK, KPC, NOCK you will realise that most staff are either Kalenjin or kikuyu. In 2002 these were full of kalenjins but now replaced by kikuyus.We may say we have 'qualified' guys, but is it fair? It is scary that the next president will also replace them with his tribe. As all these go on, many people suffer: those who loose jobs due to change of guard, those denied jobs due to tribalism and those treated as second class citizens. Try visit KRA and you will be surprised at the official language of communication, go to sheria house, go to prime minister's office. Notice that some portfolio are for 'homeboys' security, treasury, public health.
All our ministers are guilty of tribalism as they all employ their tribesmen as directors and CEOs in parastatals in their ministries. We are going to the dogs as we watch. let us not hide behind qualified big tribes.. Not all these guys have the best qualifications. Some even go to dodgy community collegesand polytechnics overseas and return as US /UK trained while they have no experience.
If Kibunjia gave a break down of specific ministries and their chief officers we will be ashamed, from DCs, chief accountants, treasury chiefs, parastal directors in each ministry.
When Kosgei had his Kinsman as a MD of KEBS, we suddenly realised it was tribalism yet when Kimunya, Ngilu, Kibaki or Annyang Nyongo does it we make no fuss.
livie
#25 Posted : Thursday, April 07, 2011 12:37:56 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/1/2008
Posts: 834
tajiri wrote:
Kibunjia's report may appear simplistic but that is because facts were distorted or some important facts were left out. We should look within ourselves and realise that tribalism is a big monster that needs to be sorted out. If you check parastatals or public companies where the government has influence e.g KPLC, KCB, KRA, CBK, KPC, NOCK you will realise that most staff are either Kalenjin or kikuyu. In 2002 these were full of kalenjins but now replaced by kikuyus.We may say we have 'qualified' guys, but is it fair? It is scary that the next president will also replace them with his tribe. As all these go on, many people suffer: those who loose jobs due to change of guard, those denied jobs due to tribalism and those treated as second class citizens. Try visit KRA and you will be surprised at the official language of communication, go to sheria house, go to prime minister's office. Notice that some portfolio are for 'homeboys' security, treasury, public health.
All our ministers are guilty of tribalism as they all employ their tribesmen as directors and CEOs in parastatals in their ministries. We are going to the dogs as we watch. let us not hide behind qualified big tribes.. Not all these guys have the best qualifications. Some even go to dodgy community collegesand polytechnics overseas and return as US /UK trained while they have no experience.
If Kibunjia gave a break down of specific ministries and their chief officers we will be ashamed, from DCs, chief accountants, treasury chiefs, parastal directors in each ministry.
When Kosgei had his Kinsman as a MD of KEBS, we suddenly realised it was tribalism yet when Kimunya, Ngilu, Kibaki or Annyang Nyongo does it we make no fuss.

Applause Applause Applause
i second u....
If you are going to be thinking only one thing, you might as well be thinking big. -Donald J . Trump
McReggae
#26 Posted : Thursday, April 07, 2011 12:42:41 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/17/2008
Posts: 23,365
Location: Nairobi
....for now it is very convenient to dismiss kibunja, deep down we are suffering from thid disease called tribalism!!!!!
..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
YesuWangu
#27 Posted : Thursday, April 07, 2011 12:59:17 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 8/11/2010
Posts: 1,588
MaichBlack wrote:
Rahatupu wrote:
IMHO, this seems to me to be diversionary of the Kibunja Commission. The percentages presented don't seem to be drawn from the right places:

1. The figures of ethnic composition should be tallied not against plain Census figures but from college, university, poly and high school graduates this would give a better indication of how the distribution against "qualification".


Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause

Kibunja's census is simplistic to say the least. I'll tell you for a fact that for some reasons unknown to me, certain communities prefer certain professions. Examples;

1) There is a certain Kenyan community that is in love with the Engineering field. They work hard, get themselves admitted into various Engineering courses and work their backs off to be the best Engineers they can be. I am sure there is a larger percentage of Engineers from this community than the percentage of the community in the Kenyan population.

2) There is a certain community that is in love with finance/accounts/economics related fields. A query of the students admitted in these courses in the Universities, CPA and CFA candidates etc. will show you that the percentage of the candidates from this community in these courses in greater than the percentage of the community in the Kenya population.

If you are hiring and are blind to the tribe - as you should be - you will automatically end up with more engineers from tribe A and more accountants/financial analysts etc. from tribe B.


Now what is this? Mh? What is this?

Ati a 'certain community is in love with (fill in) field'.....

I know the writer means no harm in saying that but it might be construed to mean other things e.g. 'members of a certain community are (fill in).....

These generalizations are harming us. Someone is what he is because he is what he is, not because of his community!
innairobi
#28 Posted : Thursday, April 07, 2011 2:07:38 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 9/2/2010
Posts: 845
Perspective: Summary of applicants of DPP

Ethnicity.........Number of Applicants

kikuyu/embu(1)...11 (36%)
luo...............8 (26%)
kisii.............6 (20%)
kamba.............2 (6%)
kalenjin..........1 (3%)
luhya.............1 (3%)
maasai............1 (3%)

3 communities represent 80% of applicants.
All my friends are heathens, take it slow. Wait for them to ask you who you know. Please don't make any sudden moves.
majimaji
#29 Posted : Thursday, April 07, 2011 2:49:12 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 4/4/2007
Posts: 1,162

I think there should be some Affirmative Action for some communities in GoK employment.
Otherwise they will forever feel marginalised.
livie
#30 Posted : Thursday, April 07, 2011 2:55:43 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/1/2008
Posts: 834
bwenyenye wrote:
This NCIC guy is discretely splitting the country down tribal lines by providing useless raw data. He then makes people feel left out and offers no meaningful way foward.

So now we know. How has it helped us more than make us realise we are different tribes? So does he want the govt to sack staff based on their tribe or employ more based on tribe? And as someone noted, is the basis of employment tribe or qualification and aptitude to do the job?

According to me, it is useless statements like these from 'trusted' quarters that make fodder for Political rhetoric that eventually drives people into different camps.

I think it was the most useless thing to come out of the commission yet!What happened to prosecuting hate speech guys?Shame on you Shame on you Shame on you


I thinks he's trying to bring to everyone's attention that the constitution had certain thresholds for the number of employees from the same region/ ethnic group.

And as such the relevant government departments and ministries should start rectifying the anomaly, not immediately of course but in due course as they recruit Kenyan to fill their vacancies.(affirmative action it would seem)
If you are going to be thinking only one thing, you might as well be thinking big. -Donald J . Trump
MaichBlack
#31 Posted : Thursday, April 07, 2011 3:13:21 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2009
Posts: 7,452
livie wrote:
bwenyenye wrote:
This NCIC guy is discretely splitting the country down tribal lines by providing useless raw data. He then makes people feel left out and offers no meaningful way foward.

So now we know. How has it helped us more than make us realise we are different tribes? So does he want the govt to sack staff based on their tribe or employ more based on tribe? And as someone noted, is the basis of employment tribe or qualification and aptitude to do the job?

According to me, it is useless statements like these from 'trusted' quarters that make fodder for Political rhetoric that eventually drives people into different camps.

I think it was the most useless thing to come out of the commission yet!What happened to prosecuting hate speech guys?Shame on you Shame on you Shame on you


I thinks he's trying to bring to everyone's attention that the constitution had certain thresholds for the number of employees from the same region/ ethnic group.

And as such the relevant government departments and ministries should start rectifying the anomaly, not immediately of course but in due course as they recruit Kenyan to fill their vacancies.(affirmative action it would seem)

So the next time I apply for a Government job and I am the most qualified I should be denied the position just because I am Kalenjin, Luo, Kikuyu, Luhya or whatever tribe and "our" threshold has been reached in that particular department. Talk about going back to stone age. And by the way, what happens if my maternal grandparents were Luo + Kikuyu and my maternal grandparents were Kalenjin + Luhya? Which tribe do you use against me?

We should simply make sure that the process is free, fair and transparent. Forget tribes. If such a process produces 70% of successful candidates from the same tribe, so be it. Actually we should have a rule stating that your application should not bear your name!
Never count on making a good sale. Have the purchase price be so attractive that even a mediocre sale gives good returns.
FundamentAli
#32 Posted : Thursday, April 07, 2011 3:27:29 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/4/2008
Posts: 1,289
Location: Nairobi
Kibunja's report is just another alarmist ploy to justify his position. I have checked last years Census report. Using Kibunja's report, the big six tribes occupy 74% of public sector jobs. Last years census puts the big six tribes at a total population of 27.3 million. The total population was 38.6 million. There are about 1.2 million foriegners in the country (Refugee population included). This puts the % of the big tribes in the country at 73%. Where is the bias? Have we even looked at population dynamics and the percentages using the working class age group among the tribes? Proximity from where people stay and work place also counts in a big way for who will work where for the low paing jobs.

Kibunja give us a break. You do not know what you are doing.
majimaji
#33 Posted : Thursday, April 07, 2011 3:33:58 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 4/4/2007
Posts: 1,162

In Kenya, we all know that some areas were and have been marginalised during colonialism and after. Therefore some communities are not at par with the bigger tribes etc. I don't know how an Affirmative action can be done without controversy but I think it is the right thing to do. Otherwise some small groups will end up like Red Indians versus White America.
Lolest!
#34 Posted : Thursday, April 07, 2011 4:26:57 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 12,069
Location: Kianjokoma
For carrying out this discussion maturely I applaud you wazuansApplause Applause Applause

Kibunjia's numbers though shallow should not be ignored totally. Kenya has been dominated by the big tribes who were favoured by the British in education and jobs. Thus we should have better facilities even in marginalised areas. But let's face it. It will be hard. Most people in those areas live comfortable lives and hate this mzungu civilisation that erodes their culure.Sad
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FundamentAli
#35 Posted : Thursday, April 07, 2011 4:39:50 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/4/2008
Posts: 1,289
Location: Nairobi
@Lolest,

Read my post above. Kibunja's statement raises emotions but it does not give comparative figures.
Wa_ithaka
#36 Posted : Thursday, April 07, 2011 5:07:00 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/7/2010
Posts: 1,279
Location: nbi
As usual, if you don’t like the message, you shoot the messenger.
What Kibunja et al have done is a piece of data analysis that is done the world over. As an example in the West, you’ll stats on the number of women who are in the boardrooms of the FTSE 100 companies; the number of negroes sweeping the floors in the big banks or eating porridge; the number of Chinese teenagers who A in math. It’s done to inform government policy and inform debate on how society needs to change.
I am also pretty sure that this is part of the NCIC’s remit. To get Kenyans to look at themselves in the mirror and get rid of ze ugly patches.
You the Kenyan needs to start looking at how you can come up with solutions. If you own a business, do you post vacancies externally or ask among your pals?
The Governor of Nyeri - 2017
freiks
#37 Posted : Thursday, April 07, 2011 5:34:33 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 6/8/2010
Posts: 1,729
I was talking with a friend of mine and he told me that some Humanitarian agencies in Sudan have totally rejected kenyans since they have totally finished the slots per nation set out there. But the HR have still employed kenyans since per every post applied they have more kenyans applying than any other country and with better qualification and proven ability to work under the terms set by the organisations. Am sure even in the public jobs sector jobs the HR ends up with more qualified guys who come from some quarters and have proven ability to work under some conditions. Am not also suprised that in my workplace am the only one from my tribe and am surrounded by many kiuks, jangos,and kaleos. Also when i look at the guys qualified from my home area all of them have good jobs and I always meet with guys from big tribes who are soo qualified and are still tarmacking
Life is an endless adventure
safariant
#38 Posted : Thursday, April 07, 2011 10:40:31 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 9/9/2010
Posts: 784
Location: ant hill - red hill
Can Kibujia conduct a census of the team that was at the Olympics or the Last World Athletics Championship? It may have been very tribal.

While at it can he do a census of the Rugby sevens squad, and of Harambee stars (who i cheered like a possessed man when the whooped Angola), I now realise they may have been biased.

Next time we really need to balance the tribes in those squads.
The greatest act of bravery is chancing a fart while suffering from diarrhoea
MaichBlack
#39 Posted : Friday, April 08, 2011 10:43:59 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2009
Posts: 7,452
safariant wrote:
Can Kibujia conduct a census of the team that was at the Olympics or the Last World Athletics Championship? It may have been very tribal.

While at it can he do a census of the Rugby sevens squad, and of Harambee stars (who i cheered like a possessed man when the whooped Angola), I now realise they may have been biased.

Next time we really need to balance the tribes in those squads.

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Nice one!

He should also have IAAF and other athletics bodies investigated for two reasons

1) They have been letting an unfair percentage of Kenyans win the middle and long distance races - this affects the international balance.

2) Even when they let Kenyans win, in most cases, a huge percentage of those who win the races are from one community. Going forward, only a maximum 33% of participants from a certain community should be allowed to win!

The Kenya athletics whatever should also be forced to have ethnic balance when picking teams to represent Kenya. It doesn't matter even if they pick a random overweight farmer. Provided we have Sang, Kariuki, Otieno, Wamalwa, Kioko, Hamisi, Sanaipei, Moraa etc. in the team. If our 3000m steeplechase team takes 1,2,3 like they always do, the must make sure all the 45+ tribes are represented in that top 3.
Never count on making a good sale. Have the purchase price be so attractive that even a mediocre sale gives good returns.
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