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Kenya's case may fry the ICC Pt II
si_cheki_ovyo_ovyo
#21 Posted : Tuesday, February 22, 2011 12:39:13 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 2/14/2011
Posts: 40
masukuma wrote:
@si_cheki_ovyo_ovyo, believe me! The reason Kony is hidding in thickets and bushes is not the fear of ICC but the fear of M7. ICC has no arresting arm on its own. ICC has as much power as you grant them.
Hata M7 agrees.


Ok, Masukuma, I hear you. But he could even be hiding from some vengeful children, now adults, who have come together to get pay back for a few things, or their bounty hunters, who knows?

TAZ
#22 Posted : Tuesday, February 22, 2011 12:42:52 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/14/2007
Posts: 4,152
B.Timer wrote:

Make no mistake about it, I want PEV perpetrators punished, but I am afraid I lost faith in Ocampo the moment he read out the names of people he wanted to indict.

The ommisions - too grave for me!!!!


It's a messed up affair!!


Applause Applause Applause

I lost faith in the guy the moment he decided to play 2012 politics.
kadonye
#23 Posted : Tuesday, February 22, 2011 12:55:13 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 1,390
ICC is good for scaring fellows. Especially the cost
What a wicked man I am!The things I want to do,I don't do.The things I don't want to do I find myself doing
si_cheki_ovyo_ovyo
#24 Posted : Tuesday, February 22, 2011 12:56:43 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 2/14/2011
Posts: 40
TAZ wrote:
B.Timer wrote:

Make no mistake about it, I want PEV perpetrators punished, but I am afraid I lost faith in Ocampo the moment he read out the names of people he wanted to indict.

The ommisions - too grave for me!!!!


It's a messed up affair!!


Applause Applause Applause

I lost faith in the guy the moment he decided to play 2012 politics.


There is that option of approaching the ICC directly and taking back the cases and duly finding the accused innocent and mere victims of political chicanery .....

The door is not shut, what is happening is that people dont want to walk through it. Instead, they want to climb out of the window, through the grills.
2 Miles
#25 Posted : Tuesday, February 22, 2011 1:51:29 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 10/26/2010
Posts: 125
What options do we really have????

According to my understanding , the Kenyan government was given time to set up a local tribunal. The ICC didn't just land in Kenya. There was a series of events that led to our misfortune. Lets all agree on that first.

Our idiot MPigs , in their characteristic foolishness , absolutely refused to set up a local tribunal. These includes the alledged suspects at that time ( thats what fear does to u ) So the ICC moved in. Simple. We invited them with open arms. Now the same characters are against the ICC. Now, how do you support such people, in all sincerity???? Then the Leader of Government Business, the Government which was unable to set up a local tribunal when given a chance to do so, is busy plundering taxes ( which MPigs have refused to pay on their whole salaries btw )is busy engaged in shuttle diplomacy.....ati Kenya can handle these suspects. Sometimes I dnt how these country is governed. Its like the government operates on mood swings!!!!


Lets just take a scenario where a local tribunal was set-up. These names were in the Waki list anyway. Ocampo named 6 of them. I dnt see what would have changed. Actually it would have been worse. Uhuru ignores summons to the departmental committee on Finance. I doubt whether he would appear before the L. T. consistently.

Maybe Ocampo has made a mistake. Maybe some names have been left out. But atleast there is a clear message been sent out that you just can't crimes against humanity the way you want. That impunity has to stop. That individuals, no matter how wealthy or how senior in government , can be held accountable for their actions. To me , thats progress thats +ve. The 6 might be innocent , but they will have to defend themselves against evidence produced. C'mon, you guys know better , that would never have happened in Kenya.
Kenyan Kop
#26 Posted : Tuesday, February 22, 2011 2:04:39 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 6/4/2007
Posts: 56
The ICC like any other court may return a guilty or innocent verdict. My question remains what if ICC fails to indict the six suspects?
2 Miles
#27 Posted : Tuesday, February 22, 2011 2:21:58 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 10/26/2010
Posts: 125
If the suspects are not indicted , we are back to square 1. I will cry for my country , and for the PEV victims.

Because we might have to go the Local tribunal way or even a TJRC ( not very sure ). Sad. Sad. Sad. Very sad.
simonkabz
#28 Posted : Tuesday, February 22, 2011 2:31:43 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/2/2007
Posts: 8,776
Location: Cameroon
Sorry 2miles,ICC rattled a snake n its now taking serious bites! Like kadonye has put it, its only gud 4 SCARING lords of war.
TULIA.........UFUNZWE!
B.Timer
#29 Posted : Tuesday, February 22, 2011 2:39:53 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 5/31/2008
Posts: 1,076
2 Miles wrote:
If the suspects are not indicted , we are back to square 1. I will cry for my country , and for the PEV victims.

Because we might have to go the Local tribunal way or even a TJRC ( not very sure ). Sad. Sad. Sad. Very sad.



Unfortunately this seems to be what we stare in the face.
Blame it on the apparent incompetence on the part of Ocampo!

BTW The local tribunal as initialy proposed had a water tight mechanism - complete with majority foreign Judges and operating on locally assembled laws that meet international standards.
Would have been neat!
They jettisoned it!!
Dunia ni msongamano..
Kenyan Kop
#30 Posted : Tuesday, February 22, 2011 2:53:15 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 6/4/2007
Posts: 56
Thank you B.Timer and 2 Miles. ICC is not a solution but one of the means to a solution. By picking up politicians and leaving a sour taste in part of the country makes the situation worse. Indeed while there is need for Justice, Kenya needs comprehensive and restorative justice. The only judicial mechanism that can be tailored to suit those ends is a local tribunal acting hand in hand with a truth justice and reconciliation commission. That is the best way (in my opinion) to begin a healing process.
si_cheki_ovyo_ovyo
#31 Posted : Tuesday, February 22, 2011 2:57:52 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 2/14/2011
Posts: 40
2 Miles wrote:
If the suspects are not indicted , we are back to square 1. I will cry for my country , and for the PEV victims.

Because we might have to go the Local tribunal way or even a TJRC ( not very sure ). Sad. Sad. Sad. Very sad.


For what its worth, its not like they will make a couple of court appearances then get convicted or acquitted immediately afterwards.

For them to take the honours and be on that unique list there has to be something against them. Something they will be asked to disprove. But as the prosecutor said, this will not be discussed in the media. It will be a long time before judgment will be made. Enough time for teach those with nia kama hiyo to ease off.

I look forward to relative peace and hopefully less politics during this time.

As Kenyan Kop rightly puts it, ICC is just one of the options available. It is the only one that is revving and ready to grind.

Until the other options are up to speed, it behooves us to move with what we have, instead of wishing.
McReggae
#32 Posted : Tuesday, February 22, 2011 3:02:55 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/17/2008
Posts: 23,365
Location: Nairobi
simonkabz wrote:
Sorry 2miles,ICC rattled a snake n its now taking serious bites! Like kadonye has put it, its only gud 4 SCARING lords of war.


Where you guys guys get this notion that ICC is desperate, I don't know!!!!
..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
Rahatupu
#33 Posted : Tuesday, February 22, 2011 3:35:27 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 12/4/2009
Posts: 1,982
Location: matano manne
masukuma wrote:
@Robinhood, let me educate you about Kenya has the highest human development index in the whole of Eastern Africa. It has the second largest economy. It has undergone a long period of peace, It is an sports giant e.t.c.
Comparing this country to the likes of sierra leone, Liberia, Sudan and Congo is the biggest insult you would do to yourself.
Remember that if a local process fails - we could still send them to the Hague!!!
Whats the worst ICC can do? It cannot hang this people if found guilty, we can!! we can place this people in stinky kenyan cells, at the ICC they will have tv, nice cells, gym time in some european jail - remember that the ICC process has not gone thru the first stage. it may not even make it to the pretrial chamber!!!


@Masukuma na Robi.... What are you telling us? Ati we try the local tribunal first then go to Hague later? Isn't that what we have already done? How many people have been prosecuted for the killings, rape, arson? @Robinhood, we may not yet be where Liberia, Sierra Leone and Sudan are but remember they did not just find themselves there they slid like we are doing slowly but surely. Liberia was the envy of West Africa in the 1970s and 1980s, its Free Port (the Free Port of Liberia) was then what Dubai is today.

If we don't banish impunity today, our children will pay for the sins of their fathers oh and mothers. I support ICC as the only realistic way of fighting impunity in our judicial system period.
TAZ
#34 Posted : Tuesday, February 22, 2011 4:10:19 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/14/2007
Posts: 4,152
Rahatupu wrote:
masukuma wrote:
@Robinhood, let me educate you about Kenya has the highest human development index in the whole of Eastern Africa. It has the second largest economy. It has undergone a long period of peace, It is an sports giant e.t.c.
Comparing this country to the likes of sierra leone, Liberia, Sudan and Congo is the biggest insult you would do to yourself.
Remember that if a local process fails - we could still send them to the Hague!!!
Whats the worst ICC can do? It cannot hang this people if found guilty, we can!! we can place this people in stinky kenyan cells, at the ICC they will have tv, nice cells, gym time in some european jail - remember that the ICC process has not gone thru the first stage. it may not even make it to the pretrial chamber!!!


@Masukuma na Robi.... What are you telling us? Ati we try the local tribunal first then go to Hague later? Isn't that what we have already done? How many people have been prosecuted for the killings, rape, arson? @Robinhood, we may not yet be where Liberia, Sierra Leone and Sudan are but remember they did not just find themselves there they slid like we are doing slowly but surely. Liberia was the envy of West Africa in the 1970s and 1980s, its Free Port (the Free Port of Liberia) was then what Dubai is today.

If we don't banish impunity today, our children will pay for the sins of their fathers oh and mothers. I support ICC as the only realistic way of fighting impunity in our judicial system period.


I totally agree with you but what do we do with the other politicians (not civilians) who were named in the Waki list of shame?
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