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QUANTITY SURVEYOR
Kaigangio
#21 Posted : Friday, November 26, 2010 12:29:24 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 2/27/2007
Posts: 2,768
@ fundamentali

You do not hire the construction lawyers as a part of the construction design and contract administration team…the lawyers should only feature in:

1.formalization of the contract..i.e signing of the contract agreement between the client and the contractor.

2.custodian of the contract performance/surety bonds…although here the client may choose to keep them instead.

3.any time a contract dispute arises between the client and consultants, client and contractor and rarely consultants and contractor.

@ fresher2010,

Check on my post #5…I already disputed those responsibilities purportedly undertaken by the QS.

Let us slice it this way…if the architectural plans are complete with no foreseeable client initiated changes and if the engineers designs are adequate after having been taken through a thorough quality control exercise, then believe me the construction project will be delivered within the budget, assuming that non preventable escalation forces do not play out. Please note that the non preventable escalation forces that I am talking about are:

1. increase in fuel costs by the oil merchants.

2. increase in the statutory taxes by the government

3. currency fluctuations

4. labour fluctuations

The QS cannot do anything to stop the above.

As for additional costs brought about by inadequate or defective designs, poor workmanship, bad quality materials etc, these are purely technical issues which the QS has never handled and are not in their (QSs) jurisdiction.

So the notion that without a QS on a construction project, the construction cost would escalate is definitely wrong and baseless.
...besides, the presence of a safe alone does not signify that there is money inside...
fresher2010
#22 Posted : Friday, November 26, 2010 2:30:06 PM
Rank: New-farer

Joined: 10/26/2010
Posts: 34
Location: Nairobi
@Kaigagio. In the the ideal sittuation, construction costs are not supposed to increase, ie if you have a fixed price contract with the contractor, this covers all the above mentioned flactuations.Thus with the advice of a QS, you can control the flactuations!(though if you tender fixed price contract Vs a flactuating contract, the fixed price contract is normally higher to cover for unforseen and possible price increases, for the flactuating contract, the risk element of flactuations is borne by the client)i would advice one to have a fixed price contract..or if you are really frugal, have a labour only contract.

Without a QS the costs will increase. Where am i coming from ok

1. How do you estimate the entire cost of the project so as to have a baseline? I contend the notion that the originators of the design can come up with the cost estimate, since they dont have the necessary training on how to estimate costs. Who prepares the estimate? The Qs
2. How does one track the costs. Of course, the QS, the work of the Arch & Eng is purely design & specifications (& by the way in most jobs it is the QS who prepares the specs, for building works & not the Arch)
3. Variations, they are bound to arise, no job can be finished without a variation, who tracks and records them? the QS. Who measures their cost & time implication? thus advising whether it is necessary?
4. The claims from the contractor, be they frivolous or justifiable, who reviews them? the QS, since he has been on board from the word go and has the training on how to handle & measure such claims
5. In as much as you want to transfer the responsibilties to the originator, they will charge you for that extra responsibilty,and am imagine at a higher premium than the QS..
6. Who will measure the work done? the QS, again the designers are not trained to measure building works.
7. If you are frugal and you choose a labour only contract, who will measure the exact amount of material required? your fundi? architect? how many times have you painted your house and after the job is done, there are paint left overs? at times more than 5 tins?
8.Who will track the progress of work and advice you accordingly? the QS! Architects cant, they are trained to design, same for engs!
In an ideal sittuation, the costs will not increase, if there are proper controls by the client, who ensures this controls the QS!
9. How will you know if you are getting the best or rather lowest rates from the contractor? am sure you know an architect, just call one and ask him the average cost of class 20 reinforced concrete per cubic meter, better yet, the cost of a tonne of sand? a tin of paint? a kg of reinforcement steel..i can bet, they will tell you a figure which is wrong!call up a QS and ask him..

Actually, IMHO, the Architects shouldnt be paid the 6%! since they dont do any contract administration! they always rely on the QS for his support!

am sure am repeating this but, the Archs & Engs can be trained to do the QSs work, but ofcourse the fee which they charge you will of course be higher than the normal fee. so no saving whatsoever!

ask yourself why do corprates use QSs? even for a 1m job? the government? they have their own QS dept but they are so overwhelmed that they actually outsource QSs from private practice! if there was no value addition, i doubt corprates would hire a QS for their works..
Jamaa wa mjengo
Litro
#23 Posted : Friday, November 26, 2010 3:00:42 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 7/22/2009
Posts: 120
Location: KENYA
@ fresher2010,

If your name is anything to go by, you must be a new entrant into the school of the built environment at the...and so you are trying to justify the relevance of the course you are pursuing. We will understand you accordingly and as sensitively as we can in the circumstances.
Needless to say, the importance of a QS in the construction process cannot be over emphasised. They check on costs!!!

But please tell your professional collegues especially those who work in cahoot with contractors to inflate quantities and prices to watch out. Otherwise how do you explain the various white elephant construction projects spread around our country if it was not an attempt to fleece clients of their money in the guise of providing consultancy services.
FundamentAli
#24 Posted : Friday, November 26, 2010 3:09:45 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 11/4/2008
Posts: 1,289
Location: Nairobi
@Kaigangio,

How much will the transaction fee charged by the lawyer? (Percentage wise). Secondly, have you ever tried to tell a lawyer to draft a simple contract even between professionals and client? If you can get past this, give him the job.

Most contract have standard forms e.g. insurance, bank, conveyancing etc. The same applies to roads and building works. Why pay for these when they are sold for almost nothing by the various industry players? How much does a quantity surveyor charge for drafting a contract? You could be paying for a service that is being offered for free
fresher2010
#25 Posted : Friday, November 26, 2010 3:16:43 PM
Rank: New-farer

Joined: 10/26/2010
Posts: 34
Location: Nairobi
@Litro, names can be deceiving, am new at wazua, hence the name, for the built industry lets just say am still a new farer...i have a long way to go, but hii ndio shamba yangu!

If there are such QSs, (which i highly doubt, they have a code of ethics to abide by) you can always sue them you know, the best way is to engage a different QS to do an audit of what the other QS did, at a cost of course. There is a registering body, Board Of Registration for Architects & Quantity Surveyors (BORAQS) which give individuals and firms the approval of practising QSing, i can get you their contacts if you want. Such acts are considered unethical by the board and one can be fined and or deregistered.

Even Engineers by the way do overdesign thus pushing the construction costs higher, they also can be sued!!


Jamaa wa mjengo
Mpenzi
#26 Posted : Friday, November 26, 2010 3:20:30 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 10/17/2008
Posts: 1,234
FundamentAli wrote:
@Kaigangio,

How much will the transaction fee charged by the lawyer? (Percentage wise). Secondly, have you ever tried to tell a lawyer to draft a simple contract even between professionals and client? If you can get past this, give him the job.

Most contract have standard forms e.g. insurance, bank, conveyancing etc. The same applies to roads and building works. Why pay for these when they are sold for almost nothing by the various industry players? How much does a quantity surveyor charge for drafting a contract? You could be paying for a service that is being offered for free


Keep using standard form contracts at your peril. Contrary to what you appear to suggest good lawyering is not simply a matter of filling in blanks.
fresher2010
#27 Posted : Friday, November 26, 2010 3:27:21 PM
Rank: New-farer

Joined: 10/26/2010
Posts: 34
Location: Nairobi
i think what kaigangio meant was that there are construction law experts out there, who he can hire should disputes arise (who by the way are QSs by profession, the ones who i have met!)

standard form of contracts can be used a basis, then they can be adjusted or edited to match the requirements of the client..i highly doubt a lawyer has the technical know how on how edit a buidling contract, leave alone to drafting one..

though IMHO, the current contract by the Joint Building Council needs serious ammendments!!
Jamaa wa mjengo
FundamentAli
#28 Posted : Friday, November 26, 2010 3:43:20 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 11/4/2008
Posts: 1,289
Location: Nairobi
@Mpenzi

I started by posing a simple challenge. Tell the lawyer to draft a contract first. We know that is their work. Can they do it? Try practically
swaweru
#29 Posted : Friday, November 26, 2010 6:11:21 PM
Rank: New-farer

Joined: 11/15/2010
Posts: 11
Location: kenya
@Pablo..please refer to the following documents if you need fee guidance for construction profesionals. Consultancy fees will cost you 10-15% of your construction cost.

1. CAP 525 - THE ARCHITECTS AND QUANTITY SURVEYORS ACT
2. Conditions of Engagement and Scale of Fees for Professional Services for Building and Civil Engineering Works
3. Conditions of Engagement by The Association of Consulting Engineers of Kenya - Agreement 1 - 3

Generally speaking the percentage figure used to calculate the design fee is inversely proportional to the construction cost. The higher the construction cost of the project the smaller the fee percentage. The technical complexity and the extent of services provided also varies from project to project and has a bearing on the percentage fee figure.



fantony
#30 Posted : Friday, November 26, 2010 6:12:16 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 11/6/2006
Posts: 276
if you want to construct a chicken hutch and call it a house it is ok..

you incredulous stupidity seems to indicate that the six years architects spend in college, four years for the QS is all a waste..

even if they were to spend the entire time high on drugs.. there must be something they pick up just by interaction and cramming for exams..

your line of thinking is why we have collapsing buildings and deathboxes of 8 levels at huruma and mathare north

infact it is straight out of the 9th century BC handbook for construction where there was one masterbuilder who was responsible for everything then spent his entire day on site to with the fundis

let us welcome you to construction industry..

the real one..

the one that will solve the housing problems for the middle class and low income groups.. it needs structure.. specialisation..

clear demarcation between ownership and management

clear demarcation between design and implementation/construction

once again for your chicken hutch you do not even need a designer... go ahead and issue a HB pencil to the fundi who will sketch it for you on the reverse of a cement sack.. buy your materials from your local hardware and invite the villagers for free labour..

in the meantime.. the professionals will be working on projects for people who appear to care about quality, the opportunity cost of funds invested in a project and hence the need to complete construction on schedule
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