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MUSEVENI. ELBASHIR. KAGAME.
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mwenza
#21 Posted : Saturday, August 28, 2010 11:22:35 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 4/22/2009
Posts: 2,863
IMHO, the issue is not whether we should have arrested Bashir or otherwise. The point is the guy should never have landed an invite in the first place.

Both Manchester United and Sofapaka play Premier League soccer in their respective countries but clearly they are not in the same league no matter what. So lets not vilify Obama since he plays in a different premier league, whether we like it or not. Unfortunately thats the reality of life.
IF YOU EXPECT ME TO POST ANYTHING POSITIVE ABOUT ASENO, YOU MAY AS WELL SIT ON A PIN
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Intelligentsia
#22 Posted : Saturday, August 28, 2010 11:42:45 AM
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Joined: 10/1/2009
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Sudan is impt to us and the region and we have invested a lot in the peace process - so why didn't we just invite the no. 2 after Bashir as a representative of the Arab/Northern Sudan?
BTW, we could have done just as well not to invite anyone from the Sudan!

Now that would have been realpolitik - we play both sides (pro-ICC, anti-ICC)to our advantage, advance our soft geopolitical influence (example of a country with deepening democracy, which is consultative, people-driven)without getting any flak on such an impt day.

And why does Kenya sign international treaties inimical to its strategic interests? Why did we ratify the ICC treaty in the first place, we should have refused to do so like the Americans!

I say our foreign policy (if there's one that is) is confused - on the one hand you ask the ICC to intervene in the PEV & on other hand you rubbish its resolutions. So when it passes its resolutions on our PEV suspects, why should other countries honour those resolutions?

The new katiba seeks to end impunity - but alas, by not playing realpolitik we just took impunity to the international level. It is actually the first breach of the new katiba by upholding impunity.

But on the international scene, ICC seems to have evolved into a western guard dog to be unleashed on emerging countries' prezos/ rebels like Taylor,Bemba, Kony,etc. Israel of course is a sacred cow, cant, wont, shouldnt be touched on its war crimes in Gaza and Westbank. Ditto the US and other Western nations.
So why should we honour its obligations/ resolutions?

Our foreign policy failed us.
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tony stark
#23 Posted : Saturday, August 28, 2010 12:33:11 PM
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Joined: 7/8/2008
Posts: 947
mwenza wrote:
I beg to differ. This guy should never have been invited in the first place. You cant compare Bashir with Kiir. One is a subject of ICC the other is as clean as snow.
And comparing George Bush with Bashir is really missing the point. The only similarity between these two is that their surnames starts with letter "B".

On this one, am with @maichblack 100%.


I hope you are not that naive. We can not invite kiir without inviting bashir. It bad enough we were smuggling tanks to south sudan.
I think the ministry sent him an invite out of custom and expected him not to be come. But bashir coming was a statement to the ICC and he is the one who come out on top.

Intelligentsia wrote:

Sudan is impt to us and the region and we have invested a lot in the peace process - so why didn't we just invite the no. 2 after Bashir as a representative of the Arab/Northern Sudan?
Our foreign policy failed us.

Kiir is the first vice president of sudan so in essence we did invite the number 2.

Arresting a sitting head of state is not as straight forward as you would think. First that is an act of war. Anyone advocating for arresting bashir is asking for war between us and sudan and worse sudan and her allies who include Egypt. That is a war we have no chance in hell of winning!
Second arresting bashir throws the whole concept of diplomatic immunity out of the window. This is an international agreement signed in 1961 all countries in the world have ratified it. We chose not to break this Law and ignored the ICC myopic and not universally ratified laws.
Third the AU among others do not support the ICC decision. Aren't we members of the AU? Who do we owe more alliance to ICC or AU?
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mwenza
#24 Posted : Saturday, August 28, 2010 1:22:22 PM
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Joined: 4/22/2009
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@ Tony shark....................The fact that AU doesn't support ICC on Bashir doesn't necessarily mean AU is right. Its obvious AU is under obligation to support one of their own, whether a dictator or otherwise.

@Intell has put the matter in its right perspective. May be the way out of these quagmire would have been to fail to invite both Kiir and Bashir.
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Intelligentsia
#25 Posted : Saturday, August 28, 2010 1:33:49 PM
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Joined: 10/1/2009
Posts: 2,436
@tony stark, I meant the no.2 of Northern Sudan not the whole of Sudan (Kiir). Both Kiir and this no. 2 of Bashir to have instead attended to represent both North & South Sudan.
Your arguments provide food for thought though.
But Sudan invading Kenya (through South Sudan,huh?)would ignite a regional war that would draw in other riparian states along the Nile. I still don't think we practiced proper diplommacy - weighing the risks against the rewards - realpolitik.
BTW, do you notice Kenya plays off the warring parties in both Sudan and Somalia? Unfortunately, not much thought goes into it of how kenya can safely benefit
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masukuma
#26 Posted : Saturday, August 28, 2010 1:58:50 PM
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anyway...the west should wait for Bashir to appear in their backyard so that they can arrest him. the repercussion of an arrest would have brought the backlash on kenya not US. wameze wembe
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Hi-Lo
#27 Posted : Saturday, August 28, 2010 2:13:48 PM
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Joined: 10/5/2007
Posts: 91
...I would call this a PhD (pull him down) fight Kenya v ICC. And I would define ICC as an imperial court dog for the EU...that only barks in Africa...but is timid elsewhere. Now ICC scored a point after declaring Kenya a failed state (there's been PEV elsewhere incl Iran, Pakistan etc but it took no action).

Now Kenya invites Bashir deliberately (actually a 2nd time since he was also invited last month for IGAD conference but refused). In refusing to arrest him, Kenya has scored a point by declaring ICC a failed court (despite its vicious reputation). SCORE 1:1

In no time ICC (I'd say EU) rushes Kenya to UN Security council for -ve sanctions. Here it's difficult to score points...the US will not attend the meeting (see Obama fake rebuke), China will vote down, Russia will be disinterested lest they open Georgia case...so the 2 decayed EU powers (France/UK) will be left holding their toothless dog seeking new dentures...down down Ocampo goes...

But the next round could be dangerous...ICC could become vicious on the Kenya PEV...
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murenj
#28 Posted : Saturday, August 28, 2010 10:41:54 PM
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I bet they are cursing BAKS under their breath, for maturing the winds of change in the east and central africa. very soon citizens of other countries will want their constitutions changed much to the discomfort of the ruling class.
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gohill
#29 Posted : Wednesday, November 24, 2010 4:57:46 PM
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masukuma
#30 Posted : Thursday, November 25, 2010 6:01:34 AM
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Location: Nairobi
south sudan secedes...
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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