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VALUATION AND ANALYSIS OF DERIVATIVES & FIXED INCOME SECURITIES
Scooby
#41 Posted : Friday, September 24, 2010 11:53:41 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 9/2/2006
Posts: 121
Hi CMG,

For Wall Street, I think the prop trading departments will just morph into a hedge fund...sort of the way Goldman Sachs and Citigroup are planning to do.

Just to change topics, dont you think that the brains in Wall Street might make things tough for Main Street. There has been a focus by hedge funds on natural commodities including food stuffs (like sugar and wheat) thereby increasing volatility of food prices.

Regards
Gordon Gekko
#42 Posted : Saturday, September 25, 2010 3:12:53 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 5/27/2008
Posts: 3,760
@capitalmarketsgeek, let me make my contribution to this in the language I understand. If you went to Michigan, we were both in the Big 10 as I was a U of Iowa (Hawkeyes) fanatic. We even played in the Rose Bowl once.smile
CapitalMarketsGeek
#43 Posted : Monday, September 27, 2010 8:34:33 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 9/11/2010
Posts: 36
Gordon....
It can even get better, My undergra is from University of Minnesota, Twin cities, I am a lifetime Gopher, University of Michigan is part of me but I only spend three semester there and I was a grown man by when I was at UMICHIGAN!
CapitalMarketsGeek
#44 Posted : Monday, September 27, 2010 8:41:48 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 9/11/2010
Posts: 36
Scooby...
Making it hard for mainstreet? This might be offensive to some people but I think this world is for the survival for the fittest..... Everyone will always come up with ways to beat the next person and take advantage of him/her, and the next person will find way to outpay the next person and the circle goes on and on and on... its a war and the winner rules...!
CapitalMarketsGeek
#45 Posted : Wednesday, September 29, 2010 8:38:14 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 9/11/2010
Posts: 36
@CapitalMarketsGeek:...That a really serious misstatement! My experience tells me otherwise...Get to CFA level 2&3 and you will scream-to-your-mother when you get tested on derivatives...Level-1 offers only an introduction and just tests a minute 5%....[/quote]
Extrablessed....
If you have an undergraduate in Finance, you should be able to walk through those derivative without any problem, but again it also depend on the quality of your undergraduate degree, "quality"
emlyn ngwiri
#46 Posted : Thursday, September 30, 2010 9:31:28 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 8/12/2010
Posts: 129
Location: nairobi
what i belive is that some undergrads may put emphasis on the stock market( a general overview of the finance function) say for example if i graduate from Egerton university(EU) with first class honors in finance and i compare with a person who graduated from university of nairobi(UON) with second class honours upper division in finance the one from UON will be better placed even if the one from EU was much brighter but if one looks at the course content between the two universities one finds that EU covers additional units( 4 to be precise) and has a more holisic approach towards each units syllabus.
CapitalMarketsGeek
#47 Posted : Thursday, September 30, 2010 6:06:43 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 9/11/2010
Posts: 36
Emlyne...
I didn't attend college in Kenya so its hard for me to judge, but where I schooled was a little different, Business schools compete to impress private sector, the more a school graduate the best students the more they get reputation from the industry and companies will come back and recruit from the school. Schools take pride on how many students get jobs after graduation and as a matter of facts, schools try to keep track of their students for years after they graduate. Having say that,passing CFA do not mean you're the smartest or smarter than those who didn't, but failing CFA put in question your dedications, commitment to success, time management,it even put doubts in your learning abilities. You tell your boss you fail CFA, he is not going to feel sorry for you and advise u to do it again, he is going to start double checking your work. You tell the boss you pass CFA is not gonna make him/her jump up and down coz thats what they expect you to do. The point is, schools do not teach the same things but atleast school prepares students to go out there and learn for themselve, EU and KU and NU,do not teach the same things but they do give students enough resources to go out and make it happen for them. I was amazed to learn that in Kenya people go to college to learn and prepare for CFA, thats something am yet to understand, maybe you can tell me! It is either a failing education quality or students just have alot of money to spend.
emlyn ngwiri
#48 Posted : Thursday, September 30, 2010 6:27:09 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 8/12/2010
Posts: 129
Location: nairobi
CMG, People in kenya do to collge to learn cfa its neither of the above 2 points in the last sentence, its because many of the cfa units like derivatives,some aspects of equity analysis and portfilio management are not practiced in kenya options and swaps strategies dont occur in kenya. so it become difficult for people to relate and practice the principles and skills acquired in our small capital market.

not all people can pocess a failing education quality, its that the practical environment does not exist....put yourself in a situation say for example you read in a school that didnt have the recomended books to enable you to pass,and the external environment was harsh (arid/semi arid you had to travel long distances to and from school etc) and compare with one who went to alliance high or starehe boys center, definately the one with no books would find it difficult to excel.

this explains why we need to visualise scenarios practised abroad by going to class
CapitalMarketsGeek
#49 Posted : Thursday, September 30, 2010 7:29:58 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 9/11/2010
Posts: 36
Emlyne...
By the way schools are very brutal in Kenya and sometimes I think there is something wrong somewhere, take for instance, in USA from stand one to form four, school starts at 8 am and by 2 pm students are done for the day, btw 8am to 2pm there is PE, federal mandated breaks, and lunch. There is also a 3 months summer break each year, There are also lots and lots of distractions in sch: cellphones, making outs, offensive dressing( schools are mixed) parttime job after sch,ipods to name a few. What about in Kenya?You know it! Do is mean Kenyan schools graduate better students than american schools? Not at all. So something has to be wrong!
emlyn ngwiri
#50 Posted : Friday, October 01, 2010 9:37:00 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 8/12/2010
Posts: 129
Location: nairobi
CMG, That economy is bigger and more developed than ours and our system of education is different.US has had over 250 years of independence surely one cannot compare with 38 years? (apples and oranges?)
mukiha
#51 Posted : Tuesday, October 05, 2010 10:19:01 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/27/2008
Posts: 4,114
M.Sc.[Financial Engineering]?

Now I give up! During our days, that would have simply been called M.A.[Finance for Engineers]

As Einstein, once said; "when mathematicians started working on relativity, I ceased to understand it"

Nothing is real unless it can be named; nothing has value unless it can be sold; money is worthless unless you spend it.
kizee1
#52 Posted : Tuesday, October 05, 2010 10:57:56 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 9/29/2010
Posts: 679
Location: nairobi
CMG

whats your advice for someone who wants to transition into quant finance yet said person doesnt have an undergrad in a hard science
CapitalMarketsGeek
#53 Posted : Wednesday, October 13, 2010 2:27:29 AM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 9/11/2010
Posts: 36
Kizee1
If you want to transition to quant, you have two option 1) go back to school and study more maths and programming and apply for a master program in a quant subject or 2) Come up with a quantitative working strategy in tradings, derivative formulations or financial programming. I won't tell you to try to be the best trader coz trading by human being won't be there in a year or two, considering the fact that 70% of tradings are currently done by supercomputers up from 25% two years ago and of course the 30% done by human are also computer aided and when I say computer aided I mean upto 99% computer aided, you cannot just get up in the morning and start trading in these markets and expect to be rich when you're competing with people who front run the market basically.
drake
#54 Posted : Wednesday, October 13, 2010 7:05:18 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 8/8/2009
Posts: 170
@Kizee

CMG is right, generally. I've done considerable research on this as I had, (note the past tense), ambitions of my own. Allow me to share some of what I found out here.

First, forget all that KEMU & KU shit. The best LOCAL alternative for a career as a Quant would be - BSc. Financial Engineering offered at JKUAT.

Peep the course content at this link:

http://www.jkuat.ac.ke/programme.php?id=74

You mentioned that your undergrad wasn't in a hard science: Find below the class profile for the 2010 MFE Program at Berkeley:

MAJORS
Engineering 40%
Mathematics 17%
Business 9%
Natural Sciences 8%
Computer Science 6%
Humanities 3%
Economics 5%
Finance 3%
MBA 3%
Other 3%

Undergraduate isn't as important; just demonstrate that you're good at math & can program.

As Regards JKUAT, I'm guessing Kizee, that you're not planning to go back to undergrad (& full-time at that) so your best option would be an MFE of MSc - Financial Mathematics. My question to you is, do you plan to work locally or "abroad"?

Why that matters is because if you're planning to work locally, you can, I believe, "get away with much less" i.e might as well go for CQF which would be rare & highly regarded here or elsewhere on the continent versus "abroad".

If you're intent on doing a Masters program "abroad", I'd advice you to consider Europe and not the U.S.... (e.g UK - Manchester, ICMA Cass [quite popular in Kenya] etc, Italy - Bocconi, Switzerland - EHT etc as the courses are less competitive, pocket friendlier, take a much shorter duration (even 9 months Full Time) and most institutions have in the past been more generous w/financial aid.

Prerequisites:
The fact that you don't have solid math credentials might complicate things for you. Most of these Quantitative Finance programs do give a refresher/ Math primer the first week or 2 of study but if that's all you're depending on, you're likely to fail.

At the very minimum, you do need to be very familiar with Matrices, Vectors, Linear Algebra 1, 2 ; Calculus 1,2,3; Probability & Statistics, Numerical Analysis ...as these will form the core of your study ...(I might have left some out) .

Here is a sample math test offered at the end of a CQF Math primer, if this doesn't intimidate you, (ignore numbers 18 - 20 smile ) you're good to go.

http://www.7city.com/pdf/cqf/maths_test.pdf

You also need to be more than familiar with object oriented programing specifically "MATLAB" , "R", "C++", "Java" ... no one will touch you if u can't program.

Good Luck!
kizee1
#55 Posted : Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:05:05 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 9/29/2010
Posts: 679
Location: nairobi
@cmg

so im actually a trader, im fascinated by quant finance to basically look at trading from a different perspective, as well as be a pioneer in the kenyan derivatives space

@drake

thanks, i actualy im starting the cqf in jan, i passed the pre math quiz it was rather easy, i read the schaums books in and out for a year and felt quite comfortable with applied math,i was actualy enrolled in the jan 2010 cohort but had to drop out, the cqf math primer was 3 days, it was extremely shallow, the pace of the program is too fast for someone who has a 9-5, i will keep both u guys posted on my progress

thanks for your responses, im extremely grateful
kizee1
#56 Posted : Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:10:04 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 9/29/2010
Posts: 679
Location: nairobi
@drake- why did u give up your ambitions
@cmg- cud u recomend a gud online math programme i cud take, netmath looked decent
CapitalMarketsGeek
#57 Posted : Wednesday, October 13, 2010 9:12:50 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 9/11/2010
Posts: 36
Kizee1.
I will give you the advise I always give pple fresh out of undergrad; there are so many other ways you can end up in a good bank doing something rewarding in terms of pay and job satisfaction other than being a quant. you can follow the CFA route, you can follow the MBA( GOOD MBA) route, you can follow the JD/LLM route. Most of the time quant schools are out of reach in terms of requirements and fees for most pple,unless you're planning to work for world top 5 investment banks or top 3 hedge funds as a quant, its not worth going to a quant school, matter of facts, no good quant sch will admit you if they think you're not going to get a job with high starting salary and high signing bonus thats what these schools take pride on. Quant classes are as easy as any other program anyone with college level math and programming knowledge will not have a problem but getting in is hard since they figure out that if they admit the best students it will be easier for them to job place them and negotiate high salary and bonus, inturn they attract more applicants willing to take loans to pay for the program!
Good thing is your signing bonus can cover all the loans you took to pay for the program.
My second advise is, check B schools some of them have very good programs e.g Illinois institute of technology MSF.
I won't advise you to take online math program it will not help your admission. Infact they have specific topics you have to cover and they usually reject math programs from some schools if the think they don't cover well the topics they need. Call the school and they will be more than willing to answer some of your questions.
drake
#58 Posted : Thursday, October 14, 2010 6:58:37 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 8/8/2009
Posts: 170
@Kizee
CQF is a first (can't find any indigenous black African names among Alumni) & a bold step ... what would be even more impressive is if you somehow managed to get your employer to pay for it smile !

Also, to echo what CMG said, it's true that MSc.Physics/MFE/MSc. > CQF for face value recognition of the designation & also the coursework is deemed to be more rigorous. The great thing about the latter though is you get to cover 1-2yrs work in 6months & part time at that.

As far as the math, I'm not sure if this helps...

http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mathematics/

It's a great resource but sadly, you can't earn credits for the courses also some videos have low sound quality (e.g. Linear Algebra)

I gave up my ambitions because (1) I felt career-wise, I would be a better fit in PE ....and that it would be a better fit for me! (2) I didn't like the risk/return distribution .....I didn't feel I had an "edge" venturing into quantitative finance; you're either a giant or a dwarf (quoting Taleb) and the giants make off with the biggest piece of the pie leaving the rest for the dwarfs to fight over.

@CMG
I've always wondered what it's like to work at a HF and I wonder if you would indulge me?

+ How big is your firm (AUM)?
+ What strategies do you run? Stat Arb, Long/short, Activist, Distressed?
+ What's role do you play and what are the hours like?
+ Layoffs at D.E Shaw...... being replicated/contemplated elsewhere? Job security on a 1-10 scale?

Much appreciated!
kizee1
#59 Posted : Thursday, October 14, 2010 10:35:58 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 9/29/2010
Posts: 679
Location: nairobi
thanks cgm &drake, my employer didnt see value so i paid it for myself, i will chek out the link u sent me..thanks for your help
CapitalMarketsGeek
#60 Posted : Thursday, October 14, 2010 8:53:38 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 9/11/2010
Posts: 36
Drake...
I am going to try to answer as much as I can, I work in a team of 19 pple we manager $4.5 billion of a wholly owned subsi' of a bank, meaning in-house fund, we basically have four team of four pple and the leadership of the fund; we have strategy team, sales, programming and trading teams. Its a closed fund, compensations is perfomance based, 2% of the fund covers our operation cost annually which include base pay for all of us and the operating expense, 10% of the annual profit is our bonus, 70% goes to the bank and 20% goes to the investor.All othe capital investment e.g IT is handle by the bank. I work in strategy team

I work late most of the time 12 to 14 hrs a day but no one forces me to and of course entire team does that coz we really believe in what we do and we're very much attach to some of the stuff, yea!I do get up sometimes in the middle of the night just to make sure europe and asian markets are stable( its not a requirement since our systems are programmed to run themselve and respond to any unusually decline in markets appropriately).
My social life, the last time I was in a night club was in 2006 but I am in my late 20s so its understandble. I am not married and probably never will, it is easy to pick up women these day beleive me.
Strategies we use are a range of them and include all you listed, our systems scan the markets every fraction of a second looking for anything to reap, 70% is highfreq and 30% of tradin is human.
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