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Kenya Debt Watch
Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/4/2009 Posts: 700 Location: Nairobi
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The official statistics are out in the latest monthly economic review indicate that debt productivity was 0.2. The published results show that GDP rose from 1.35 trillion to 1.39 trillion meaning that for every shilling of debt created by our banking system only 20 cents was generated as revenue. This is indeed a sad state of affair but this year, there are signs that the trend will continue unless GDP grows fast. But interesting thing in the monthly review was the CBK balance sheet which indicated increased investment in US bonds by the CBK (almost 8 billion worth). However it is difficult to know whether these figures are reliable because the figure on the liability side of the balance sheet is negative and the CBK balance sheet isn't even balanced (tsk tsk). Check out the monthly review below. http://www.centralbank.g...tions/mer/2010/May10.pdf“We are the middle children of history man, no purpose or place. We have no great war, no great depression. Our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives!" – Tyler Durden
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/4/2009 Posts: 700 Location: Nairobi
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Some would say that the debt situation is getting out of hand, but maybe there are statistics we may be overlooking that may add some objectivity. By May 2010, Kenya’s public debt was 1,192.2 bn comprising 650.3 bn as domestic borrowing and 542.0 bn as external borrowing. Based on respective auctions after the 20th of August 2010 (and assuming that external debt has remained constant) we can conservatively estimate that public debt has swollen to 1,231.1 bn by today. This represents a 10.46% increase in public debt since December 2009 when the figure was 1,114.5 bn. The key ratios that Kenyan economists refer to seem to suggest that everything is okay as long as GDP, exports and taxes are rising; this is reflected in the debt to gdp ratio (up to ~48%), external debt to exports ratio (at ~ 7%) and domestic interest to revenues (which is at a very respectable 10%). These ratios are all considerably lower than they were prior to 2004. So despite the swell in debt all the indicators suggest that we’re actually managing our debt well. Well done to the country’s debt management department and CBK (for lengthening the yield curve)! Maybe now it’s time to focus on the drivers of GDP. They say that 75-80% of the country’s GDP is driven by public consumption. Public consumption should have improved given the low inflation environment and rising imports (complimented by good credit numbers from trade finance and consumer lending; remember the manipulation before). However, CBK’s target signaled by a reduction in the CBR suggests that they want to target domestic private investment. Import statistics suggest that the country is importing less consumer goods (TVs from dubai, etc…) as compared to capital goods (machinery & equipment). These capital goods are being imported by manufacturers, industry and by government for infrastructure projects. So the question is, is the government crowding out the private sector by undertaking investment in domestic infrastructure or somehow monopolizing funds that would otherwise be used more efficiently by the private sector. The idea here is that the private sector and government would compete for the same resources to develop infrastructure but implement projects at different speeds. Would GDP be accelerated if the private sector took the initiative (or is it the banks that are unwilling to facilitate this by becoming increasingly risk averse). In the recent Management magazine publication, the Centum CEO Mr Mworia said “Economic growth should ideally be driven by domestic consumption and investment. However, this is not so in Kenya which is mainly a government expenditure driven economy,” he says. “No wonder, the loan rates are not local market driven leaving the investor at the mercy of those who fund the government spending,” he notes. So is Kenya taking the French/Italian model where GDP is spurred on by government investment rather than the US model where it’s all private sector development (I hope I’m making sense here). Psss. Is there a banking cartel messing up the interest rate structure? “We are the middle children of history man, no purpose or place. We have no great war, no great depression. Our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives!" – Tyler Durden
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/4/2009 Posts: 700 Location: Nairobi
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Peter Schiff explains the problem with debt. Check out the video below after 6:00 minutes. Read more: http://www.youtube.com/user/SchiffReport
Peter Schiff explains the problem with low interest rates. Check out the video below after 2.15 minutes. Read more: http://www.youtube.com/user/PeterSchiffChannel“We are the middle children of history man, no purpose or place. We have no great war, no great depression. Our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives!" – Tyler Durden
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/4/2009 Posts: 700 Location: Nairobi
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Scubidu wrote: Maybe now it’s time to focus on the drivers of GDP. They say that 75-80% of the country’s GDP is driven by public consumption. Public consumption should have improved given the low inflation environment and rising imports (complimented by good credit numbers from trade finance and consumer lending; remember the manipulation before). However, CBK’s target signaled by a reduction in the CBR suggests that they want to target domestic private investment.
Actually meant to say private consumption. “We are the middle children of history man, no purpose or place. We have no great war, no great depression. Our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives!" – Tyler Durden
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/4/2009 Posts: 700 Location: Nairobi
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goldendelight wrote:Quote:@Scubidu - The local banks are known to put most of their attention towards gvt bonds as opposed to risky lending to common mwananchi but this trend i think has reduced over the last few years thanks to CBK. Previously you had to proove to the bank that you can afford to do wthout a loan to actually get one, and now there's a lady who stalks my collegues and I to take up a loan, even if i dont need one at the moment. of course when there is no money available to the common mwananchi, the economy will take a hit, so intervention by CBK is great, and welcome. I saw your comments on fractional reserve banking. Yeah, the system creatss credit whenever someone takes up a new loan, but this is debt backed by debt, in my opinion there must be an elastic limit. We already knee deep in the mess, but i can't think of an alternative at the moment. The money creation process is flawed, and our taking on things that are practised in the west will be our undoing. So far our monetary system is quite conservative, but i think soon we'll scale up in the game. What did you think of the documentary film - money as debt? More importantly, how do you think we can escape the trap, as individuals yaani? Secondly have u seen this, and what are your thoughts on it? http://www.theeastafrica.../-/cghfxcz/-/index.html Personally i think infrstructure bonds are great, coz the infrastructure will stimulate growth in existing sectors, along with job creation during developments, so in a way even though we're taking on a lot of debt, its self sustaining - at least i hope so. Ur turn... @goldendelight. There are a few alternatives to FRB (including miniature versions like community currencies) but they have they're own flaws. FRB is the best and most flexible system though but insanely unsustainable because of our finite world. Most people our age will be dead when the real damage is done, so most don't pay attention to FRB. So for now most can exploit the system, but the next 20 years will be interesting to watch (especially when the US goes down). Our monetary system is fairly conservative, but we haven't had it for long and our politics hasn't affected things too badly (except Goldenberg 93/94). Not sure how much flexibility they'll have in future. Yes, watched money as debt and many other documentaries (have a whole library). There's a school of economics called Austrian Economies (www.mises.org) that I'm still reading about...they have some interesting ideas and working papers. How can you escape the trap as an individual? Don't get into debt. The movies highlighted the key problem...interest. You need to save more. Kenyans are normally averse to debt. Unfortunately our whole GDP is dependent on consumption (either private or public) and so the policy is geared to less saving (US model vs China). Why should Kenyan's save? Inflation is low, non? but I didn't know they're hawking loans again. I suppose you and you colleagues earn enuf in their eyes to justify the loans and risk. Kenyan's are borrowing to consume. Which are the largest sources of private credit right now, trade (finance) and private individuals and they're growing quickly. But what is more important is domestic investment, which brings us to the subject of your second point. I briefly read the article you attached. The IFRB's are great as we can tangibly see an increase in tax revenues from projects (also potential increase in domestic exports). Government wants to drive investment, but who does it better, government or private sector? my 2 cents. I don't claim to be an expert; these are just my thoughts so don't think they are all right. I'd appreciate talking more about 'money as debt' in greater depth and try to see if we can relate it to Kenya. I'm done. “We are the middle children of history man, no purpose or place. We have no great war, no great depression. Our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives!" – Tyler Durden
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Rank: New-farer Joined: 9/5/2010 Posts: 6 Location: Nairobi
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Scubidu wrote:goldendelight wrote:
@goldendelight. There are a few alternatives to FRB (including miniature versions like community currencies) but they have they're own flaws. FRB is the best and most flexible system though but insanely unsustainable because of our finite world. Most people our age will be dead when the real damage is done, so most don't pay attention to FRB. So for now most can exploit the system, but the next 20 years will be interesting to watch (especially when the US goes down). Our monetary system is fairly conservative, but we haven't had it for long and our politics hasn't affected things too badly (except Goldenberg 93/94). Not sure how much flexibility they'll have in future.
Yes, watched money as debt and many other documentaries (have a whole library). There's a school of economics called Austrian Economies (www.mises.org) that I'm still reading about...they have some interesting ideas and working papers. How can you escape the trap as an individual? Don't get into debt. The movies highlighted the key problem...interest. You need to save more. Kenyans are normally averse to debt. Unfortunately our whole GDP is dependent on consumption (either private or public) and so the policy is geared to less saving (US model vs China). Why should Kenyan's save? Inflation is low, non? but I didn't know they're hawking loans again. I suppose you and you colleagues earn enuf in their eyes to justify the loans and risk. Kenyan's are borrowing to consume. Which are the largest sources of private credit right now, trade (finance) and private individuals and they're growing quickly.
But what is more important is domestic investment, which brings us to the subject of your second point. I briefly read the article you attached. The IFRB's are great as we can tangibly see an increase in tax revenues from projects (also potential increase in domestic exports). Government wants to drive investment, but who does it better, government or private sector?
my 2 cents.
I don't claim to be an expert; these are just my thoughts so don't think they are all right. I'd appreciate talking more about 'money as debt' in greater depth and try to see if we can relate it to Kenya. I'm done. @ Scubidu I'm no expert either, government wants to drive investment but they can only encourage it eg improvng infrastructure, security, energy etc generally create a conducive environment for business activity. If all that is in place, private sector takes up the challenge, exploits the opportunities eg the cck, safaricom, zain issue on tariffs will force all the mobile phone companies to now concentrate on data as they are all looking to loose major revenue on voice business. At least Safaricom is ahead on that front, and Zain is developing 3g, but what happens to the others. Ok now I'm digressing, my point is cck's intervention will encourage these changes. On unrelated matter, me thinks the Mobicom dealer had an idea of these tariff changes, and made their move, the question is, can Orange match up to this compe?
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/7/2010 Posts: 1,279 Location: nbi
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Why do we complicate GoK debt talk? If you look at your income. Lets say you were funding your monthly spend (including savings) with a mixture of salary and debt, would you justify only putting 3% in investments as Kenya currently does? The Governor of Nyeri - 2017
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/4/2009 Posts: 700 Location: Nairobi
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@goldendelight. You have a good point. But it's a question of whose more qualified? Who has a better CV or track record? And maybe who employs better? I also think that the private sector can also do infrastructure development...I remember some time ago someone had suggested private public partnerships, I wonder what happened to that? Don't know much about Mobicom, polee. @wa_ithaka. Aahhh good point. Very logical. So if we use you to represent the economy and your wealthy Uncle as the government. Dorman's as local firms and Nescafe as foreign producers. Let's try an experiment and see if we look at this issue. (1) With your monthly savings+debt, would you buy Dorman's Kenyan Coffee or imported Nescafe? (2) If you buy Nescafe, who benefits in your economy? (3) If you do buy Dorman's, where will they get the capital to compete with Nescafe to grow their operations, if they have access to only 3%? If you consume more of them, they'll need to expand, so would it be logical to spend more on them and save more for them; i.e., more than 3% for the good of Dorman's? (4) If the bank's want to reduce their risks who do they lend to, your filthy rich uncle or Dorman's? Remember the bank's are lending only 3% so it's a sensitive issue. If it's not doing that then it's using it's unlimited credit facility but the question remains would your filthy uncle or Dorman's use the funds better for more consumption (afterall your economy is measured on how much you spend/consume monthly)...isn't that the issue? “We are the middle children of history man, no purpose or place. We have no great war, no great depression. Our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives!" – Tyler Durden
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/4/2009 Posts: 700 Location: Nairobi
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@Wa_ithaka. Mr US uses its big salary plus loads of debt to fund its consumption. Mr China uses its big salary and savings to lend to Mr US. What happens to the US when Mr China stops lending it its salary/savings? Mr China can use his salary of himself and still has capital from his savings, non? A quick analogy from Peter Schiff. From a speech he gave to mortgage bankers in 2006. The same Wall Street analysts that told us the internet era was a new era are now telling us that this current era of American consumption and global production is viable and it’s not. I’ll give you a quick little analogy and move on to another subject. I mentioned this on my website and used it in various speaking engagements, but to describe it as dynamic.
Assume that a group of castaways are stranded on an island; let’s say five of them are Asian and one of them is American. They are stranded on this island and they have to divide up the workload, so one of the Asians is given the job of hunting and looking for meat. Another one is going to be fishing and looking to catch fish. And another one is responsible for exploring the island for vegetation and still another one gets the job of looking for wood, to build the fire, to cook the meal.
And then it comes to the American and they asked themselves what job they would assign to the American. Well the American gets assigned the job of eating. And so at the end of the day, all these Asians gather around this big table after a hard day of foraging, hunting and fishing and they prepare to feed this American, who did nothing all day but sun himself on the beach (he had a service economy). In any event a modern economist who was looking at this islands economy would say the American is the key to the whole thing. Without the American and his ravenous appetite these poor Asians would have nothing to do all day, they’d be unemployed.
Well the reality is, the Asian are more than capable of consuming the food themselves. Now perhaps if they did have to work all day long feeding this fat American, they wouldn’t have to work as hard, maybe they could pursue other interests they had. The best thing they could do to improve their standards of living would be to kick that American of the island. Off course when that happens the American is in trouble because he doesn’t have five Asians doing all his work.“We are the middle children of history man, no purpose or place. We have no great war, no great depression. Our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives!" – Tyler Durden
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/7/2010 Posts: 1,279 Location: nbi
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Scubidu- might be the time of the day, but I'm not sure I get your pt. Mine was very simple. Debt funding your spending will only lead to one outcome. The Governor of Nyeri - 2017
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